Can we revive Mechanized?

Maybe you can elaborate about your tactics so that other players see the benefit of this commander? Overall its only place 6 in commander loadout in 1vs1 and non-existent in any game mode above it. Maybe you played it in 2vs2 or up too and could tell us about that too? If you came just to say that you find the thread hilarious without saying a single word about how it should be used yout post is just useless and insulting. If you tell us how it should be used and why other people underestimate it your post could be actually really useful. I would appreciate that.

I skipped through it, because I don't know what I should look for. The only thing this video shows that is reffering to Mechanized: You were able to micro your WC51 well until it payed for itself.

- there were no Cav Rifles
- there was no M21 HT
- there was no M3 HT
- 76mm showed up as the game was won already and added nothing, before you owned opponent with regular M4A3s and AT-Guns already
- did you use combined arms somehow in that game?

You would have won this game without choosing a commander at all. You just played way better and controlled the game with nondoctrinal units and abiliites. What do you want to show with that video? Yes, we can see that you are able to play the faction very well.

I skipped through it, because I don't know what I should look for. The only thing this video shows that is reffering to Mechanized: You were able to micro your WC51 well until it payed for itself.

- there were no Cav Rifles
- there was no M21 HT
- there was no M3 HT
- 76mm showed up as the game was won already and added nothing, before you owned opponent with regular M4A3s and AT-Guns already
- did you use combined arms somehow in that game?

You would have won this game without choosing a commander at all. You just played way better and controlled the game with nondoctrinal units and abiliites. What do you want to show with that video? Yes, we can see that you are able to play the faction very well.

I’m not sure why I need to crutch on a doctrine to win to prove why the doc is good? The WC51 gave me a sizeable early lead and helped me easily kill the flak HT which ensured mid game initiative for me that snowballed into a win.

The halftracks are useless, I play for the wc51, the 76mm and combined arms. I used all 3 extensively in this specific match here.

Dont know why you are only refering to the label HE and AP. Overall it isn't the best AI shell nor the best AT shell. At AI I like the shell of other mediums like PZIV and T34/85 a lot more, both deal less consistent damage but have a higher chance to wipe. Higher Wiping chance clearly outshines more consistent damage with less wiping chance in a game that is about unit preservation. Keeping your vetted troops alive is key. In addition PZIV and T34/85 don't need to switch shell to be efficient vs armoured targets. A further advantage.

You can check Tanks shell here and see why HE Sherman is superior.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/105528/the-grand-tank-aoe-damage-compendium

We don't need to talk about AT, there are multiple tanks better than 76mm in that compartment. Thats fine of course because 76mm should be more of an allrounder.

In the end beeing op is just about a unit being too cheap for its performance in ressource cost and population. I already said that a cost adjustment could be necessary

The 76mm has the most cost efficient AT shell and it penetration values are way high than other units of its class.

I usually don't even bother getting the Thompson upgrade on the Cav Rifles anymore. They don't seem to make that much of an improvement and they cost a whopping 80 munitions, yet they're not elite infantry. The Thompsons should cost less and add a bazooka upgrade. Cav Rifles feel more useful as AT with their smoke and at package.
It's a lot of fun to stick them in the halftrack and dive tanks though. Usually they don't expect the AT satchel.

As a lv19 USF 1v1 player who uses Mechanized every single game against OKW, I find this thread hilarious.

What's your build order?

What's your build order?

I posted 2 replays above, have a look.

Mechanized is good if snowballing but offers nothing in case of stalement.

The M5HT is bad as it competes (in term of resource investment) with more aggressive and versatile units such as the Stuart or AATH.

The M5 don't cut it as well, It lacks something or at least can't be used like a 251. Better using an ambu unless you want to use it as a rusher/zook. But the jeep is probably better investment in this matter.

Cavalry RM are okay and are the reason with the jeep to use this commander. But again they're good if you're on the verge of snowballing.

Combined arms requires anticipating and microing and can't be used like skill planes or arty strike defensively or offensively to cover you. Now if you have the micro its probably one of the best ability in game.

Sherman76, you're not missing it if you don't have it. You're not picking the doctrine for it anymore.

You can check Tanks shell here and see why HE Sherman is superior.

The M4A3 deals more consistent damage over a larger area, that is out of question. So it does more overall damage. Still its OHK-radius is worse than PZIV and T34/85. This game is about unit preservation. Killing a full four soldier squad is just plainly better than killing 3 soldiers of two different squads each with two single soldiers running away and preserving veterancy and upgrades. Without the menchanism of veterancy and purchasable unit upgrades Sherman HE would be clearly the best AI shell. But as it stands the shell with the higher wipe chance is the stronger one.

The 76mm has the most cost efficient AT shell...

I would question that. There are two more cost efficient ones in the same faction alone:
76mm: 40 Range 220/180/165 6,35RoF for 380MP/125FU
M10: 50 Range 180/160/140 5,85RoF for 300MP/80FU
M36: 60 Range 260/240/220 6,55RoF for 400MP/145FU

I do think that M10 and M36 have a more cost efficient AT shell. They both do have a Vet1 HVAP shell in addition that drastically improves AT performance for some MU cost.

...and it penetration values are way high than other units of its class.

There is no real other unit of its class, because of the shell switch mechanism. Technically, if you refer to medium tanks, than keep in mind that other medium tanks with lower penetration have good AI damage with the same shell without having to swap.

The M4A3 deals more consistent damage over a larger area, that is out of question. So it does more overall damage. Still its OHK-radius is worse thean PZIV and T34/85. This game is about unit preservation. Killing a full four soldier squad is just plainly better than killing 3 soldiers of two different squads each with two single soldiers running away and preserving veterancy and upgrades. Without the menchanism of veterancy and purchasable unit upgrades Sherman HE would be clearly the best AI shell. But as it stands the shell with the higher wipe chance is the stronger one.

OHK radius is as follows:

PZIV = 1.13
T-34/85 = 1.15
Sherman HE = 1.08

now if in your opinion 0.07 bigger OHK radius is more important than AOE 0.5/1.25/2.25/4 I can not really help you because you are cherry picking a singe stat with minimal difference and painting a false picture.

Sherman HE round are simply not inferior to PzIV/T-34/85 as anyone can see from MMX analysis.

I would question that. There are two more cost efficient ones in the same faction alone:
76mm: 40 Range 220/180/165 6,35RoF for 380MP/125FU
M10: 50 Range 180/160/140 5,85RoF for 300MP/80FU
M36: 60 Range 260/240/220 6,55RoF for 400MP/145FU

I do think that M10 and M36 have a more cost efficient AT shell. They both do have a Vet1 HVAP shell in addition that drastically improves AT performance for some MU cost.

Again cherry picking and quoting half my post just so that you can compare different things. This is what I posted and what you deliberately left out.

"The 76mm has the most cost efficient AT shell and it penetration values are way high than other units of its class.
M10 and M36 are decided TD and not in the same class as the 76mm.

There is no real other unit of its class, because of the shell switch mechanism. Technically, if you refer to medium tanks, than keep in mind that other medium tanks with lower penetration have good AI damage with the same shell without having to swap.

76mm is premium medium tank, the same way M4A4 is medium tank regardless of switchable rounds.

The switch mechanism does not make the unit change class.

I am not sure why you want to argue semantic here, things are pretty simple if 76mm had both HAVP and HE shell it would be simply be OP and it would be able to perform as one of the best AI/AT medium tanks in both roles.

The M4A3 deals more consistent damage over a larger area, that is out of question. So it does more overall damage.

OHK is overrated, especially if you compare HE Sherman and T34/P4H shells. I'd rather have shell that make infantry retreat consistently, then a shell that misses a lot, but if it connects will wipe more models. Only P4J with its insane scatter scaling with vet may be on par with HE Sherman in this regard.

M10 is a joke, since it is only useful as a throw away tank to trade for a super heavy in a risky dive. The Jackson rush vs P4J is suicide, since you simply gonna lose the map.
what Vipper actually meant, that from all generalists mediums 76mm has really good pen (HVAP is as good as comet's 77mm), and if you vet it, the penetration is really close to what tank destroyers have. Basic AP shell is meh for infantry, but is still enough to kill few models here and there, especially with pintle installed with potential to fend of a P4.

Swapping "problem" is way overblown on this forum. The delay is as long as reload itself and it is only an issue if you do it in armor combat, a.k.a "get caught with your pants down".

M10 is a joke, since it is only useful as a throw away tank to trade for a super heavy in a risky dive.

That's not true. The M10 is very good at it's role, which is to counter medium tanks. You rush one or two out, counter axis' mediums and unleash the damage with the howitzer Sherman. Also the M10 is a beast at crush damage and is an unorthodox way to deal with blobs. Combined with the dozer sherman you have a lot of wipe potential.

OHK radius is as follows:

PZIV = 1.13
T-34/85 = 1.15
Sherman HE = 1.08

now if in your opinion 0.07 bigger OHK radius is more important than AOE radius of 4 I can not really help you because you are cherry picking stat and painting a false picture.

Sherman HE round are simply not inferior to PzIV/T-34/85 as anyone can see from MMX analysis.

I thought OHK of HE shell would be 0,88 as the other Sherman shells. Yeah 1.08 to 1,15 / 1,13 is neglectable.

Again cherry picking and quoting half my post just so that you can compare different things. This is what I posted and what you deliberately left out.

While you are doing this constantly (deliberatley leaving out that half of posts where you can't argue about anymore) that wasn't what I did (look further below, there I declare why I compared to TD). In addition I just admitted I was wrong (see above), haven't seen you doing this once since I'm at this forums. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

"The 76mm has the most cost efficient AT shell and it penetration values are way high than other units of its class.
M10 and M36 are decided TD and not in the same class as the 76mm.

The switch mechanism does not make the unit change class.

The class is defined by its shell. One of its shells is like beeing a medicore TD, the other shell is like beeing medicore generalist tank. So there is no other unit that can be compared to 76mm. This only would be true if shell switch would be instant, but that is not the case. 76mm can change between role of TD/generalist tank. It is both of two worlds. It is logical to compare its AP shell which has no AI value to the shell of other TDs which have no AI value too.

I am not sure why you want to argue semantic here, things are pretty simple if 76mm had both HAVP and HE shell it would be simply be OP.

Op is defined by performance in comparison to cost. If a unit is too cost efficient it is op. Having HE and AP shell simply has to be taken into account if you calculate cost. So as I said two times already in this thread a cost adjustment has to be made in that case.

Swapping "problem" is way overblown on this forum. The delay is as long as reload itself and it is only an issue if you do it in armor combat, a.k.a "get caught with your pants down".

If you don't hit shell switch instantly after you fired you loose a few seconds up too the full ability delay. It gets more complicated (micro intensive) if you have multiple tanks. Thats clearly a disadvantage. If it wouldn't it simply could be one single shell with both attributes instead. The 76mm would be pretty good that way for its cost. It is a problem too if you get charged by AT infantry while you have AP locked in because any shoot at the advancing squads is valuable for your own survival.

That's not true. The M10 is very good at it's role, which is to counter medium tanks. You rush one or two out, counter axis' mediums and unleash the damage with the howitzer Sherman. Also the M10 is a beast at crush damage and is an unorthodox way to deal with blobs. Combined with the dozer sherman you have a lot of wipe potential.

if you are talking about teamgames, dozer is something that's gonna die very fast to double AT.
As for m10, I haven't seen single time someone even with good micro get any good value from it vs competent opponent. I'd rather get sherman, or get capt and AT than that, even if I'm gonna feel really adventurous as USF to pick this commander is a first place. Meme infantry crash is the only thing it is really good at.

That's not true. The M10 is very good at it's role, which is to counter medium tanks. You rush one or two out, counter axis' mediums and unleash the damage with the howitzer Sherman. Also the M10 is a beast at crush damage and is an unorthodox way to deal with blobs. Combined with the dozer sherman you have a lot of wipe potential.

The problem with M10 is that its role is somehow undefined. Somehow it makes you believe it is a flanking tank (fast speed and accleration + flanking speed) but on the other side it is just made for frontal combat (50 range + good pen + Vet1 HVAP + too low turret rotation) as the poor man's Jackson. The unit isn't very well designed. They should have decided which role it is made for.

The problem with M10 is that its role is somehow undefined. Somehow it makes you believe it is a flanking tank (fast speed and accleration + flanking speed) but on the other side it is just made for frontal combat (50 range + good pen + Vet1 HVAP + too low turret rotation) as the poor man's Jackson. The unit isn't very well designed. They should have decided which role it is made for.

That turret rotation is the killer, I have had plenty of flanks stalled by turret taking to long to shoot from side or behind. The armor is paper thin so you need it do damage quickly.

I thought OHK of HE shell would be 0,88 as the other Sherman shells. Yeah 1.08 to 1,15 / 1,13 is neglectable.

Glad that you acknowledge that, too bad that I had to provide the stats myself, instead of you checking them out even thought I did provided you with a link to very good analysis/comparison.

While you are doing this constantly (deliberatley leaving out that half of posts where you can't argue about anymore) that wasn't what I did (look further below, there I declare why I compared to TD). In addition I just admitted I was wrong (see above), haven't seen you doing this once since I'm at this forums. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

PLS stick to topic instead of posting about "vipper", ad hominem arguments are not very helpful.

The class is defined by its shell. One of its shells is like beeing a medicore TD, the other shell is like beeing medicore generalist tank. So there is no other unit that can be compared to 76mm. This only would be true if shell switch would be instant, but that is not the case. 76mm can change between role of TD/generalist tank. It is both of two worlds. It is logical to compare its AP shell which has no AI value to the shell of other TDs which have no AI value too.

If you want to create a new class of vehicles go ahead but you will have to create a total of 4 to also categorize ISU-152/KV-2/M4A4. I doubt many people will follow your categories and semantics not that important.

76mm would still be closer to medium tank than a TD.

Op is defined by performance in comparison to cost. If a unit is too cost efficient it is op.

That is not very accurate, Guards/Shock troops become OP when they where moved from CP 1 to CP 2.

Having HE and AP shell simply has to be taken into account if you calculate cost. So as I said two times already in this thread a cost adjustment has to be made in that case.

Only this is not about what you have suggested (twice already, but without providing an actual price) but about what Easy ♠ has suggested that 76mm should get HE as is with no price change.

WC51 .50 cal upgrade takes too long
M3 halftrack gains vet incredibly slowly. The speed ability is needed for survival
76 sherman underperforms. It needs explosive rounds like the regular sherman. No reason for it to not have that.

PLS stick to topic instead of posting about "vipper", ad hominem arguments are not very helpful.

Your reaction shows that I'm right about it.

If you want to create a new class of vehicles go ahead but you will have to create a total of 4 to also categorize ISU-152/KV-2/M4A4. I doubt many people will follow your categories and semantics not that important.

We don't have to create a new class and I didn't said that. I said 76mm unifies two classes in one unit.

That is not very accurate, Guards/Shock troops become OP when they where moved from CP 1 to CP 2.

Since it only was about a T4 tank which timing is regulated by tech costs I excluded that. Yeah timing and population are further factors. Although you got it somehow wrong here. But I can provide the stats for you if you want to. You want to check yourself?

Only this is not about what you have suggested (twice already, but without providing an actual price) but about what Easy ♠ has suggested that 76mm should get HE as is with no price change.

I just put it into the overall context of this thread and other posts. A price adjustment was part of the further discussion.