Pfuss vs AssEngi

Why not just give your ass engineers bars?

6 men G43 PF are 295/80 munition unit and thus they there ARE more expensive than Assault engineers in both MP and munition.
(I am not even sure if OP is talking about flamers for Assault engineers since there would be little reason to go point blank with it.)

6PF are not CP 0 call-in unit, they are buildable from HQ and require upgrade to get 6men which is also different than being a call-in unit.

Comparing these two units are not really helpful since they serve different roles.

This whole thread does not really serve any real purpose because the interaction of these units one vs the other does not really say much for either unit.

My oversight, still 5 reinforcements and MP price is even and it goes up from there + as I said CQC units bleed more, simply because the can't do afk dps from the cover. So no, PFs are not more expensive no matter how you spin it.

Why not just give your ass engineers bars?

Because BARs only bring midrange DPS to a squad with grease guns and they are worse on the move close range+60 muni per piece.

My oversight, still 5 reinforcements and MP price is even and it goes up from there + as I said CQC units bleed more, simply because the can't do afk dps from the cover.

295MP/80MU is more expensive than 280MP/(60MU) thus PF are more expensive than AE that is a simply fact.

So no, PFs are not more expensive no matter how you spin it.
...

The Cost of a unit and bleed are completely different metric so if someone is "spinning" words here that is you and not me.


Important thing here is that there is no reason in the first place, to compare PF, which is a alternative mainline infantry, with AE, which is a engineer unit.

295MP/80MU is more expensive than 280MP/(60MU) thus PF are more expensive than AE that is a simply fact.


The Cost of a unit and bleed are completely different metric so if someone is "spinning" words here that is you and not me.


Important thing here is that there is no reason in the first place, to compare PF, which is a alternative mainline infantry, with AE, which is a engineer unit.

Bleed is an important metric, it is just a delayed cost. That is why penals are not great late game, because you pay for using them way too much.
E.g. some guy buys cheap used BMW, but he has no idea, that he will have to invest more then its worth to get the car to a reasonable condition and especially the cost of maintaining that vehicle.
Same with units in COH2, it is all part of the cost and is instrumental part of unit's cost efficiency, in which PFs are clearly in the lead. So yes, they are more expensive and by more expensive I mean initial cost compounded with reinforce cost and conditions that unit is operating in.

Yes, units are completely different, but they still eat up a slot in commander's roster, because there are USF commanders with rangers, paras and even cav rifles and I would get any of those guys over this totally "cheaper then PF" unit.

Bleed is an important metric, it is just a delayed cost. That is why penals are not great late game, because you pay for using them way too much.
E.g. some guy buys cheap used BMW, but he has no idea, that he will have to invest more then its worth to get the car to a reasonable condition and especially the cost of maintaining that vehicle.
Same with units in COH2, it is all part of the cost and is instrumental part of unit's cost efficiency, in which PFs are clearly in the lead. So yes, they are more expensive and by more expensive I mean initial cost compounded with reinforce cost and conditions that unit is operating in.

Yes, units are completely different, but they still eat up a slot in commander's roster, because there are USF commanders with rangers, paras and even cav rifles and I would get any of those guys over this totally "cheaper then PF" unit.

+
And this is one of the main reasons that Ostruppen are dominant in 1v1s. 15 reinforce (or so) is such a low upkeep that you can keep doing whatever you want with them without hurting other timings/units.
You get penals and you do get a great AI squad early game but one that will bleed you dry once indirects come to play

295MP/80MU is more expensive than 280MP/(60MU) thus PF are more expensive than AE that is a simply fact.


The Cost of a unit and bleed are completely different metric so if someone is "spinning" words here that is you and not me.


Important thing here is that there is no reason in the first place, to compare PF, which is a alternative mainline infantry, with AE, which is a engineer unit.

AE are more of a alternative mainline that isn't good enough to actually be an alternative mainline. It doesn't have great engineering tools, as it can't build Green Cover (pretty much the #1 job of engineers). its repairing is superfluous in that commander, as every vehicle comes with built in repair teams.

AEs are literally just not good enough to use as an alternative mainline, like Assault Grenadiers commonly are. Their high reinforcement cost and lack of closing tools makes them an iffy CQC unit and backline super engineer in a faction that has GOOD CQC units and has no need for powerful engineers outside the Pershing

This gets REALLY BAD late game where CQC units get murdered by late game explosives and high veterancy units.

Reinforcement cost is one of the most important metrics of any combat unit, so with their high RC and bad closing they take disproportionate causalities, bleeding MP like crazy.

As I mentioned earlier, they need a reason to exist. Either give them a Pershing to support late game or make their CQC better. The easiest way to do that is adding a cheap sprint and cutting RC, like AG. Affordable, fast throwing smoke nades work too.

Really, replacing the M10 with the Pershing provides them something to work on once they become obsolete late game. The problem is the 240mm Howitzer Barrage would need review and maybe replacement (replace with White Phosphorus Barrage?) as putting an arty killing skill on a commander with a non-KT Heavy Tank is a big no-no.

Bleed is an important metric, it is just a delayed cost. That is why penals are not great late game, because you pay for using them way too much.
E.g. some guy buys cheap used BMW, but he has no idea, that he will have to invest more then its worth to get the car to a reasonable condition and especially the cost of maintaining that vehicle.
Same with units in COH2, it is all part of the cost and is instrumental part of unit's cost efficiency, in which PFs are clearly in the lead. So yes, they are more expensive and by more expensive I mean initial cost compounded with reinforce cost and conditions that unit is operating in.

If you want to claim A.Eng bleed more than PF write that instead of trying to correct me for saying they are cheaper than PF. 6 PF are simply more expensive and that is fact.

Yes, units are completely different, but they still eat up a slot in commander's roster, because there are USF commanders with rangers, paras and even cav rifles and I would get any of those guys over this totally "cheaper then PF" unit.

Does taking up a command slot has anything to do with their cost?

AE are more of a alternative mainline that isn't good enough to actually be an alternative mainline. It doesn't have great engineering tools, as it can't build Green Cover (pretty much the #1 job of engineers). its repairing is superfluous in that commander, as every vehicle comes with built in repair teams.

That is probably because they where never designed as mainline infantry but as an engineer unit.

As for engineer tools they do bring plenty and unique things to USF like mines, flamers, cutters+2 weapons slots and "destroy cover" all of which are great tools for the USF and not available stock.

AEs are literally just not good enough to use as an alternative mainline, like Assault Grenadiers commonly are. Their high reinforcement cost and lack of closing tools makes them an iffy CQC unit and backline super engineer in a faction that has GOOD CQC units and has no need for powerful engineers outside the Pershing

Again they are an engineer unit and not a mainline infantry.

This gets REALLY BAD late game where CQC units get murdered by late game explosives and high veterancy units.

Reinforcement cost is one of the most important metrics of any combat unit, so with their high RC and bad closing they take disproportionate causalities, bleeding MP like crazy.

As I mentioned earlier, they need a reason to exist. Either give them a Pershing to support late game or make their CQC better. The easiest way to do that is adding a cheap sprint and cutting RC, like AG. Affordable, fast throwing smoke nades work too.

Really, replacing the M10 with the Pershing provides them something to work on once they become obsolete late game. The problem is the 240mm Howitzer Barrage would need review and maybe replacement (replace with White Phosphorus Barrage?) as putting an arty killing skill on a commander with a non-KT Heavy Tank is a big no-no.

I am not sure why post all that in response of my post or even in this thread since it is out of topic.

If you want to make suggestions about A.Eng or redesigning the commander, I suggest you start a separate thread about it.

What I can tell you for sure is that 5 men A.Eng with sprint and flamers is very bad suggestion.

6 PF are more expensive than A.Eng and comparing these two units does really say much for either unit.

We need to chill, because PFs are god damn 15 mp, 20 muni more expensive up front. Of course they should win, because they are more expensive, lmao. The thread can be closed now

Ass grens and ass engies iirc are about the same price, actually fight roughly the same ranges.
Ass grens are better at assaulting, ass engies are better at engineering.

Ass engies are not an alternative mainline, they are an alternative engineering unit (many people don't know this, but that's where the engineer part of the name comes from!)

Ass engies, are more like sturms, they hit early and fight well in that time, but when that time is up they have a number of abilities to lean back into and if they must they can be pulled for specialist tasks (sturms for AT ass engies for burning up the enemy garrisons)
Engineers are supposed to be laying defenses, you have rifles to fight, and they are damn good at it. Much better than they are at engineering.

Ass engies can lay better mines than both RE and fussiliers, they can construct the same defenses as RE, but can also clean up sight lines for things like pits and garrisons.

If the usf player wants assault infantry, they exist. Rangers and Thompson paras are AMAZING at killing shit. They don't have an engineer job binding up their kit or inflating their price either!

Ass engies, are more like sturms...

Which are getting buffed this patch because you know... they don't cut it enough vs mainline infantry. The rest of your post is your personal opinion but doesn't synergy with the game design.

Which are getting buffed this patch because you know... they don't cut it enough vs mainline infantry. The rest of your post is your personal opinion but doesn't synergy with the game design.

- Veterancy 2 Received Accuracy bonus from -23% to -29%.

damn super gigantic buffs, sturms will now be like main line infantry for OKW for sure.

Srsly people comparing a bloody enginner unit to an alternate main line infantry unit with commpletely different roles.

Engineers are supposed to be laying defenses, you have rifles to fight, and they are damn good at it. Much better than they are at engineering.

assengies have no ability to build cover, they can't even build sandbags, not meantioning tank traps. And elite crews actually provides +0.5 per model repair speed bonus, so no point building them to repair something. So what is the point of this engineering unit if it is, like it was said before, as alternative mainline that can build barbed wire and lay mines? Assgrens can actually flank and have very nasty nades, while assengies have flamethrower.
Cav rifles have worse stats and vet bonuses, yet is more useful unit then this.

assengies have no ability to build cover, they can't even build sandbags, not meantioning tank traps. And elite crews actually provides +0.5 per model repair speed bonus, so no point building them to repair something. So what is the point of this engineering unit if it is, like it was said before, as alternative mainline that can build barbed wire and lay mines? Assgrens can actually flank and have very nasty nades, while assengies have flamethrower.
Cav rifles have worse stats and vet bonuses, yet is more useful unit then this.

Sturm pios can't build any of that shit either and they cost even more.

They're literally translated to assault engineers. They're not mainlines either.

- Veterancy 2 Received Accuracy bonus from -23% to -29%.

damn super gigantic buffs, sturms will now be like main line infantry for OKW for sure.

Srsly people comparing a bloody enginner unit to an alternate main line infantry unit with commpletely different roles.

Sturm pios can't build any of that shit either and they cost even more.

They're literally translated to assault engineers. They're not mainlines either.

Yet they fight better mainline infantry when you manage to put then on their best position. They've been buffed during several patches to have them being able to do so.

Oh come on. Sturms getting a slight RA buff with veterancy is nothing serious. It would have been a problem if they got vet0 buffs as they are the most oppressive starting unit currently on most maps. But a vet2 bonus is really nothing serious. And Assault engineers are fine. They are nothing special but realistically, they are fine. You can't use them to replace the mainlines but you can use them as a charging unit early on.

Sturm pios can't build any of that shit either and they cost even more.

They're literally translated to assault engineers. They're not mainlines either.

Sturms are core unit for OKW, like Vehicle Crews and RE for USF. you remove vehicle crews form USF and this unit becomes excellent overnight. For now it is a combat unit that can lay barbed wire and mines with occasional repair ability. It is like giving the repair upgrade for Volks. They don't become engineers from it, they are still a combat unit, but with an ability to repair vehicles.

Why don't we just talk about how OP fusiliers are in general? What's the point of this matchup/comparison?

Fusiliers have needed changes for a while, their performance against ass engies doesn't seem super relevant

assengies have no ability to build cover, they can't even build sandbags, not meantioning tank traps. And elite crews actually provides +0.5 per model repair speed bonus, so no point building them to repair something. So what is the point of this engineering unit if it is, like it was said before, as alternative mainline that can build barbed wire and lay mines? Assgrens can actually flank and have very nasty nades, while assengies have flamethrower.
Cav rifles have worse stats and vet bonuses, yet is more useful unit then this.

You don't have to build cover to be an engineer squad. Last I checked cons, even with conscript repair, are not considered "engineers"

You can say "as an alternative mainline" as many times as you would like, it does not make them one.

You are talking about how usf doesn't need ass engies because they have crews (granted last I checked crews couldn't burn out garrisons nor lay mines...) and then say you want them to be alternative mainlines as if USF doesn't have rifles.

USF doesn't have alternative mainlines, at all. They have specialist support squads for the best and most flexible mainline in the game-rifles.
But yes, let's make them an alternative mainline, one that is a "mainline" but actually an engineer.... Like all those other mainlines that lay wire (could you kindly list at least one mainline that can do this? Cause I can list engineers in all factions that can....)

Ass grens ARE better in combat, it's almost like they are a combat squad and not an engineer squad....
Cav rifles full their niche, if you use them as they are designed, they perform extremely well....
It seems your issue is that you don't understand the fundamentals of the game and want rangers that also can deny the enemy cover and lay mines. Not balance, just something YOU can make work....
Your dillusion that ass engies are like Volks with repair highlights and underlines that you fail to grasp even the besics of unit role and game design.