Buff Allied "Heavy Tanks"

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 14:00 PMHannibal

I agree on this. However, at least for larger team games, I have the feeling that sight range does not matter as much since tanks do not operate on their own as often. To put it easily: Unit density is so high that there is always an infantry squad in front of your tank, rendering the tank sight less important.


To be honest, that's at the very heart of how CoH is supposed to work. Unless there will be special code for "after two misses the next shot is a guaranteed hit" or so, all RNG based games will have occasions of the game itself screwing you (or your opponent) seriously over. These games are not about who was able to precisely estimate the power discrepancy between two armies, but who was able to estimate the most likely outcome by gut feeling.
Too much RNG will never feel rewarding. On the other hand, it adds an additional layer of constantly being forced to re-evaluate your situation based on single events within that fight. Unfair outcomes will always happen, but their frequency should be minimized. In your example, a Jackson failing to penetrate a P4 even twice is less than 0.4% even on max range. It WILL happen if you play often enough, but if this system really bugs someone then CoH is probably the wrong franchise.
To what it's worth, CoH2 does a decent job of balancing out RNG and tactics. Because the scale is so small and tanks worth so much, there will always be issues with games being decided by just "that last shot" penetrating or not. Sometimes I knew that I was being screwed over or actually my opponent was being screwed over by the game itself, but we shouldn't forget that people will always attribute a great move and won fight to their own great tactics, whereas that loss of a tank is always due to shitty RNG. This in the end leaves everyone with the assumption that they are a good commander but the game screws them over regularly, forgetting all the times they were a shitty commander but the game got them the victory (which is also bad), and most of all forgetting all the times where they played well or badly but regardless got what they deserved.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 14:43 PMEsxile

Jackson fails a lot vs mediums, or I'm curse with RNG maybe.

USF ATG, well... a video can explain it better



I agree with you in general but at the moment the state of balance is rigged. Some factions are much more dependent on RNG than others, leading into more micro requirement to overcome it while some other faction can simply a-move their army because RNG plays in their favor.

To put it clear, when I play Axis I always estimate the risk to see my Tiger or Panther or Brumbar to be damaged at each shot. So every time they bounce a shot, I see it as an extra life, I see this RNG as rewarding, if there are no favor in RNG, that's not a problem because I didn't count on it.
On the other hand like in the video when my Atgun fail to penetrate twice in a raw a stock medium tank (and that's not unusual) and lead into having to retreat all your army because RNG doesn't like you at this particular moment, I feel helpless, what can I do more? That a true question. Because It would have been a KT, ok I can understand the situation, but that's just a Pz4 which in return has no problem to rampage anything around it.

Jump back to quoted post2 Aug 2021, 19:22 PMSolved

The thing is that these tanks don't seem to be able to compete even with the worst Axis heavy tank in terms off performance , basicly what all the vs Panther videos where all about.

They just don't reflect the cost for how bad they perform and you are just better off just spamming a bunch off tank destroyers.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 17:01 PMShadowLinkX37

That clip may be pretty bad for the AT gun, but 1.25 bursts from the 50 at like range 20-25 and the volks still isn't in the dirt is even more depressing.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 18:37 PMEtherealDragon

Unless you think that heavy tanks don't perform well enough versus infantry to justify their cost Show Spoiler

then that's not really much of an argument. Heavies do well enough versus Panther that if they are supported by infantry or support weapons they can force it off or have them risk losing the Panther. Just because they don't win in a vacuum doesn't mean they need buffed. Sure, if you want to kill tanks you are better off spamming TDs but that's not nearly as flexible as a heavy tank that can also force infantry retreats. Which again, is the whole point of heavy tanks in this game.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 18:37 PMEtherealDragon

Unless you think that heavy tanks don't perform well enough versus infantry to justify their cost Show Spoiler

then that's not really much of an argument. Heavies do well enough versus Panther that if they are supported by infantry or support weapons they can force it off or have them risk losing the Panther. Just because they don't win in a vacuum doesn't mean they need buffed. Sure, if you want to kill tanks you are better off spamming TDs but that's not nearly as flexible as a heavy tank that can also force infantry retreats. Which again, is the whole point of heavy tanks in this game.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 19:19 PMSolved

We have a ISU - 152 that is a overpriced Assault tank at 14CP , costing a extra 40 fuel and 100 less MP compared to elefant/JT while having worse overall performance on the field , with the accuracy off a PTRS rifle , the AP round can't even hit crap.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 14:43 PMEsxile

Jackson fails a lot vs mediums, or I'm curse with RNG maybe.

USF ATG, well... a video can explain it better

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 20:07 PMKlement Pikhtura

I think you've got a bad outcome bias.
Vet 0 m1 pen at far range is 130 + 50% (from ability) pen is 195. P4j armor is 234. So the penetration chance of P4 on hit = 195/234 = 0.83 (83%).
M1's chance to hit a P4j is 80% at far range.
Lets not discriminate between misses and not penetrating shot, since the outcome is indifferently bad for us. So to pen we have 66.4% and to not pen is 33.6%.

So, yeah, pretty much you had a bad case of RNG there.

And Jackson is awesome. Yes, it is the worse in terms of static accuracy, but it the best in terms of mobile accuracy, if you factor that it is one fast boi, you have a great TD.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 20:28 PMEsxile

Bad rng case? 33% is huge.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 20:28 PMEsxile

Bad rng case? 33% is huge.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 20:39 PMKlement Pikhtura

it is not huge, it is "unlikely". It is more likely to pen then not, that is the premise. And veterancy fixes that issue and should bump probability to 100%

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 20:55 PMEsxile

Every shot there is 1/3 chance it will do nothing, that's huge in a fight where your atgun is going to shot 3 or 4 times before disengagement. We're far from unlikely or we have a different definition of unlikely. Does unlikely means every single game for you? And I'm not only referring to my own experience, I see plenty of it in every game OKW/USF I watch.

Then veterancy shouldn't be a fix for basics such as fighting a medium tank with an Atgun.

Jump back to quoted post3 Aug 2021, 20:55 PMEsxile

Every shot there is 1/3 chance it will do nothing, that's huge in a fight where your atgun is going to shot 3 or 4 times before disengagement. We're far from unlikely or we have a different definition of unlikely. Does unlikely means every single game for you? And I'm not only referring to my own experience, I see plenty of it in every game OKW/USF I watch.

Then veterancy shouldn't be a fix for basics such as fighting a medium tank with an Atgun.

Jump back to quoted post5 Aug 2021, 02:59 AMGoforGiantsV3

At least, Call-in 1 limit heavy tanks have to beat 1 panthers I think...

Jump back to quoted post5 Aug 2021, 05:14 AMFelixTHM

They already do. Lol. Call-in heavy tanks have better armour and health, and similar penetration. Pershing and Tiger have ROF advantage over the Panther while IS2 has high armour that can bounce Panther shots quite often.

Jump back to quoted post5 Aug 2021, 09:36 AMthekessvn

are you retard ?
M26 and IS-2 not gonna win 1v1 WITHOUT ANY inf SUPPORT. That is the fact we have right now. Even you pay more price, limit in doctrine, yet Balance team and most of people would let Alies Heavy tank actually win Panther on 1v1 because " BALANCE ".
If you play alies, better get TD, medium and fuck Axis hard and fast before shit happen later ( Thanks to Stumtiger, KT and panther ).

Jump back to quoted post5 Aug 2021, 14:59 PMHannibal

That's nonsense. While a win is not guaranteed, Allied heavies have a decent chance of winning against a Panther. They might be heavily damaged which can be up for discussion, but suggesting that a Panther will easily kill Allied heavies is nonsense.