Late game performances of Volksgrenadiers and veterancy

Volksgrenadiers late game performances seem to be extremely underwhelming.
Vet 5 Volksgrenadiers with the STG upgrade (260/25/60) consistently lose against the new 7 men squad Conscripts (240/18/50)



I ran multiple tests and Conscripts alway came out on top with 3 or 4 models left and about a fourth of the total HP pool
This deficiency can be attributed to the weird and unique veterancy bonuses of the Volks

Vet 1
-10% received accuracy.
Vet 2
+30% accuracy.
-20% weapon cooldown.
Vet 3
-14% received accuracy.
Vet 4
+7 sight range in cover.
Vet 5
Passive healing out of combat.

Vet 4 and Vet 5 bonuses aren't related to durability or dps of the unit, they are remnants from before OKW could easily backtech into Med HQ, and don't fit a mainline unit. Such bonuses could be changed into a cooldown/accuracy and RA boosts to help the unit

Wouldnt it be better to test this at all ranges rather than just long range (which I believe volks are not best at)?

Wouldnt it be better to test this at all ranges rather than just long range (which I believe volks are not best at)?

I will post more captures later, I ran the same test with 2 close conscript sandbags on the right, cons still win, I decided to screen a mid-long range engagement because it's a realistic engagement and nobody is going to lose dps making volks advance, their STG is a mid range weapon, other than the hp/models losses

The pic was the second test actually, I moved cons a bit to make the 7th man get a cover and they won with 4 men

I will post more captures later, I ran the same test with 2 close conscript sandbags on the right, cons still win, I decided to screen a mid-long range engagement because it's a realistic engagement and nobody is going to lose dps making volks advance, their STG is a mid range weapon, other than the hp/models losses

The pic was the second test actually, I moved cons a bit to make the 7th man get a cover and they won with 4 men

nice work, since you have started it can also test 5 men grenadier?

Volksgrenadiers late game performances seem to be extremely underwhelming.
Vet 5 Volksgrenadiers with the STG upgrade (260/25/60) consistently lose against the new 7 men squad Conscripts (240/18/50)



I ran multiple tests and Conscripts alway came out on top with 3 or 4 models left and about a fourth of the total HP pool
This deficiency can be attributed to the weird and unique veterancy bonuses of the Volks

Vet 1
-10% received accuracy.
Vet 2
+30% accuracy.
-20% weapon cooldown.
Vet 3
-14% received accuracy.
Vet 4
+7 sight range in cover.
Vet 5
Passive healing out of combat.

Vet 4 and Vet 5 bonuses aren't related to durability or dps of the unit, they are remnants from before OKW could easily backtech into Med HQ, and don't fit a mainline unit. Such bonuses could be changed into a cooldown/accuracy and RA boosts to help the unit

Part of it is that Volks have a fairly substantial spike after the first truck, and they receive their STGs... and that lategame they're expected to be "replaced" with Obersoldaten, who very convincingly obliterate Cons.

The main issue with that design is that the late timing of Obers means that OKW generally "need" four volk squads (Three seems to work sometimes, dependent on build/matchup). This and the mandatory Sturmpioneer is already a lot of population space taken up, and this is made even worse if you then add one (or, god, two) Ober squads to your build, who are exceedingly pricy in the population department. There's almost the implication that you should be losing a Volksgrenadier squad or two, which I can't say I'm a fan of.


Two changes I suggest, the first of which I know I've been droning on about for a couple of days:

A: Volks should lose their STG upgrade, and instead have a "Mobilise Reserves" styled upgrade later in the game, and have their veterancy rebalanced alongside. Obers should be brought back into the first truck at a weaker initial strength, scaling to their current power through tweaked veterancy, squad upgrades (Paid, or "automatic" with other trucks), and their MG34 be placed in the Schwerer. This solves both issues: Obers can be more readily fit into infantry builds without requiring volk loss (Fallschirmjager and JLI come sooner than Obers, and this is part of why both squads are so good), and Volks can have their performance curve smoothed out, remaining pretty much as they are in the early game (So as not to disrupt current balance) while being weaker (relatively) in the midgame (Which would be compensated by their ability to start building Obers earlier on, even if they would begin weaker than they are now), and scaling better into the lategame without necessarily being more deadly.

B: Soviets should receive an "Elite" infantry unit nondoctrinally. Either Penals should be able to "Refit" into some type of "Redeemed" unit, or some variant of Guards should be available nondoctrinally. Mobilise Reserves doesnt need changes, I don't think, certainly not a nerf.

nice work, since you have started it can also test 5 men grenadier?

sure, the squad leader upgrade?

sure, the squad leader upgrade?

yes I had tested when they had G43 and they where doing worse than LMG grenadier at the time, but I have not tested since the patch.

snip

Also, Volks don't scale as particularly efficient meatshield either. Actually, including cons, they have the lowest durability of all mainlines in late game both against dps and aoe damage. This was just a suggestion to fix their poor veterancy that considers stg volks change not possible aand volks a 260/25 mp unit (I doubt the balance team is up for yet another rework and to mess up mainlines balance matchups). Having just a -10% RA bonus at vet4 could help a lot

Also, Volks don't scale as particularly efficient meatshield either. Actually, including cons, they have the lowest durability of all mainlines in late game both against dps and aoe damage. This was just a suggestion to fix their poor veterancy that considers stg volks change not possible (I doubt balance team is up for yet another rework and to mess up mainlines balance matchups)

Again, it's a facet of the faction having stock hyper-elites. Strictly improving Volk performance would need to be very carefully considered, due to the power of Obersoldaten, and doing as you suggest unfortunately doesn't fix the "real" issue that I consider OKW's infantry game to have; Which is that you seem to be /expected/ to lose squads in order to fit your Obers in.

Volks being weak/scaling badly wouldn't be a huge issue (though badly scaling "mandatory" units honestly isnt great design) if you didn't need to have quite so many in the early game in order to hold on.

Wouldnt it be better to test this at all ranges rather than just long range (which I believe volks are not best at)?

Did it again at close range (2 times) and screencapped it, the results are the same

yes I had tested when they had G43 and they where doing worse than LMG grenadier at the time, but I have not tested since the patch.

Tested a mid close-ish range and Grenadiers with STG44 squad leader barely got away with it with a lot of extra holes

Tested a mid close-ish range and Grenadiers with STG44 squad leader barely got away with it with a lot of extra holes

Thanks great man.

I was expecting that result. LMG grenadier will probably do even better than VSL than waht they used to do.

Did it again at close range (2 times) and screencapped it, the results are the same

Just in case you don't know it

Make sure to always drop smoke between 2 squads when you switch one's allegiance, otherwise the targeting gets screwed up and you get weird results.

Just in case you don't know it

Make sure to always drop smoke between 2 squads when you switch one's allegiance, otherwise the targeting gets screwed up and you get weird results.

What would be the difference? In the pix most cons are actually with the backs towards the grens. I also nerfed the cons by making them move a bit against the volksgrenadiers and they still won. I doubt the matchup can change much depending on random squad AI behaviour or so

What would be the difference?

if you switch without smoke, it screws up fire concentration and either or both squads both focus down 1 soldier at a time which fucks up the tests. Always use smoke to make sure targeting doesn't happen the moment you switch but after smoke ends.

Redo your tests.

if you switch without smoke, it screws up fire concentration and either or both squads both focus down 1 soldier at a time which fucks up the tests. Always use smoke to make sure targeting doesn't happen the moment you switch but after smoke ends.

Redo your tests.

Did the tests again with mortar smoke, in Cons vs Volks at close range same results except that Conscripts (who had to turn their backs actually) were left with 2 men but roughly the same hp pool left.
Grenadier Squad Leader was defeated by cons.
The Volks vs Cons matchup consistently favours cons while the cons vs squad leader grenadier is a close one leaning slightly in favour of cons (since Grenadiers that win are left almost dead)
I'll post the screens soon

if you switch without smoke, it screws up fire concentration and either or both squads both focus down 1 soldier at a time which fucks up the tests. Always use smoke to make sure targeting doesn't happen the moment you switch but after smoke ends.

Redo your tests.

Sounds good

A good alternative is the heavy cav smoke drop from USF to save you time

Sounds good

A good alternative is the heavy cav smoke drop from USF to save you time

Or the Stuka Smoke pots, i suppose.

nice work, since you have started it can also test 5 men grenadier?

I did test on 5-man grens Before. Here is what I found:

vet0:
Long: RNG(slightly in favor of Cons)
Mid: VSL-grens win(about 2-3 models left)
close: RNG(slightly in favor of 5 man gren)

vet3:
Cons win at all ranges.