Lefh Counter Barrage Controversy

you should stop with the bullshit sarcasm because CB WAS identified

Read more carefully. That comment wasn't about Counter Barrage itself, but about this "new" tracking thing.

Read more carefully. That comment wasn't about Counter Barrage itself, but about this "new" tracking thing.

Its a distinction without a difference and you know that. Fucking buff the goddamn lefh for all I care just make the player have to fucking micro the unit like they should have to.

Yes doctrinal static artillery countering lighter artillery using counter barrage ability is an issue. I would also like to take this opportunity to raise awareness to the issues such as AT guns piercing tanks and MGs pinning infantry.

How do you imagine static artillery is worth it if the ability literally just clicks on opponents artillery location and continues to fire there for a minute? Static artillery is way less lethal and more susceptible to getting destroyed than mobile artillery counterparts. Like come on what do you guys want these things to be ? Just worse artillery option that requires commander pick and 8cp?

All that micro and resources to counter one (1) unit that you click once and forget about. Super balanced.

That's just a gimmick suggestion. CB is more "countered" by simply having one of your indirect units fire a single shot, wait for the "bang" of the LEFH firing, and simply moving somewhere else and performing your "real" indirect attack.

It's a micro tax, sure, but doing that makes the counter barrage LEFH literally a dead unit, unless spending all those resources and 13 pop on an unit to make your opponent micro a bit is valuable. Despite the massive bonuses it gets, the fact it retaliates against /any/ indirect usage means it can be baited out/neutered in this way. In such a case the Axis player is genuinely better off using regular barrages.

CB kills in teamgames (where there can potentially be multiple LEFH), against static howitzers (Which obviously can't reposition), and if you forget that it exists and use an indirect unit when you haven't already baited out a counter-shelling.

Its an AIDS ability, I agree, though its partially a symptom of Artillery in general just being a terribly unfitting part of the game, and also that it acts unintuitively in the fashion that Elchino described earlier in the thread. I'd love it to be removed, but I'd also love artillery in general to get a major, major rework.

Yes doctrinal static artillery countering lighter artillery using counter barrage ability is an issue. I would also like to take this opportunity to raise awareness to the issues such as AT guns piercing tanks and MGs pinning infantry.

How do you imagine static artillery is worth it if the ability literally just clicks on opponents artillery location and continues to fire there for a minute? Static artillery is way less lethal and more susceptible to getting destroyed than mobile artillery counterparts. Like come on what do you guys want these things to be ? Just worse artillery option that requires commander pick and 8cp?

The issue is that CB was removed off other units for being unbalanced and a no skill micro ability, why does it get left on Lefh? The static howizters aren't shit, theyre just not as good as a static howitzer that kills things without having to micro so you can spend your attention resource elsewhere on the map while your opponent shift-u's a bunch of reverse orders and hope to god it wont hit him behind the fucking base lol.


At bare minimum if CB is kept on the weapon the range needs to be shortened drastically for the ability. I think we can all agree a howitzer killing your base sector on certain maps is a serious balance/design problem? If not, Id like to be able to call my offmaps on their base sector again please.

Yes doctrinal static artillery countering lighter artillery using counter barrage ability is an issue. I would also like to take this opportunity to raise awareness to the issues such as AT guns piercing tanks and MGs pinning infantry.

How do you imagine static artillery is worth it if the ability literally just clicks on opponents artillery location and continues to fire there for a minute? Static artillery is way less lethal and more susceptible to getting destroyed than mobile artillery counterparts. Like come on what do you guys want these things to be ? Just worse artillery option that requires commander pick and 8cp?

To be fair, it's only UKF and USF that get the mobile artillery pieces. SOV have static artillery just like OSTheer, with access to the ML20 (basically the same an an LEFH without CB), and the autistic RNG cannon B4, that either does literally nothing when it fires, or instakills a medium tank.

Also: Im reasonably sure the static pieces are more deadly than the mobile pieces (In particular the Sexton), it's just that the mobile pieces can reposition and fire from optimal locations (and subsequently retreat), and that they're rather harder to kill.

The issue is that CB was removed off other units for being unbalanced and a no skill micro ability, why does it get left on Lefh? The static howizters aren't shit, theyre just not as good as a static howitzer that kills things without having to micro so you can spend your attention resource elsewhere on the map while your opponent shift-u's a bunch of reverse orders and hope to god it wont hit him behind the fucking base lol.


At bare minimum if CB is kept on the weapon the range needs to be shortened drastically for the ability. I think we can all agree a howitzer killing your base sector on certain maps is a serious balance/design problem? If not, Id like to be able to call my offmaps on their base sector again please.

Do anyone want to tell him about the buff to Ost Mortar CB that got a range buff?

The issue is that CB was removed off other units for being unbalanced and a no skill micro ability, why does it get left on Lefh? The static howizters aren't shit, theyre just not as good as a static howitzer that kills things without having to micro so you can spend your attention resource elsewhere on the map while your opponent shift-u's a bunch of reverse orders and hope to god it wont hit him behind the fucking base lol.


At bare minimum if CB is kept on the weapon the range needs to be shortened drastically for the ability. I think we can all agree a howitzer killing your base sector on certain maps is a serious balance/design problem? If not, Id like to be able to call my offmaps on their base sector again please.

I'm not actually sure, what else was it removed from other than the Panzerwerfer? In the case of the Werfer I believe it was removed because it was a completely garbage ability for that unit, not because it was too strong.

For OST's Mortar, CB was actually buffed a few patches back, gaining extra range over a regular barrage.

For Brits' base CB, it was certainly nerfed, but I think part of that is you couldn't even reasonably be expected to kill the "howitzer" that was doing the CBing.


CB hitting base sectors is a factor of what seems to be an oversight, not so much an intentional part of design. The thing with the "constant shift-uing" is similarly an oversight, I think, I'd think that CB is supposed to target the location the indirect fired from, not follow it around in the fog until it manages to properly lock-on... though really Sanders or someone would need to comment there.

That's just a gimmick suggestion. CB is more "countered" by simply having one of your indirect units fire a single shot, wait for the "bang" of the LEFH firing, and simply moving somewhere else and performing your "real" indirect attack.

It's a micro tax, sure, but doing that makes the counter barrage LEFH literally a dead unit, unless spending all those resources and 13 pop on an unit to make your opponent micro a bit is valuable. Despite the massive bonuses it gets, the fact it retaliates against /any/ indirect usage means it can be baited out/neutered in this way. In such a case the Axis player is genuinely better off using regular barrages.

CB kills in teamgames (where there can potentially be multiple LEFH), against static howitzers (Which obviously can't reposition), and if you forget that it exists and use an indirect unit when you haven't already baited out a counter-shelling.

Its an AIDS ability, I agree, though its partially a symptom of Artillery in general just being a terribly unfitting part of the game, and also that it acts unintuitively in the fashion that Elchino described earlier in the thread. I'd love it to be removed, but I'd also love artillery in general to get a major, major rework.

Thank you for the good faith comment, you atleast acknowledge its an aids ability with a huge micro tax against their opponent.

I would also like to see a big IDF rework. It such a huge component of war but implementations either come out as cheese, RNG cannon, laser guided munitions, or just plain shit.

The mortars in my opinion are finally mostly balanced and work well in all game modes AND they still keep some level of asymmetry that some people wont compromise on. Balance team should analyze what works for light IDF units and maybe try and translate that over. I know, I know, easier said than done but holy shit CB and maybe IDF overall needs a serious overhaul.

Make CB require micro practically does nothing since a competent player will not allow it to even exist in the first place anyway. Static Arty suck and the only real thing it really does is seal clubbing newbies no don't know how to counter it

Do anyone want to tell him about the buff to Ost Mortar CB that got a range buff?

Dog, that wasnt the only CB to exist and its also its a mortar so its not sniping 130 fuel vehicles after one HALF a barrage. Other CBs got removed or nerfed like pip commented on. Do you remember this game in like 2013-14? Huge changes have happened since then, big overhauls, new units all kinds of things. So it used to be quite different.

Also: Im reasonably sure the static pieces are more deadly than the mobile pieces (In particular the Sexton), it's just that the mobile pieces can reposition and fire from optimal locations (and subsequently retreat), and that they're rather harder to kill.

I shouldve been more clear that I meant the werfer with the remark to mobile artillery. Why would ostheer player ever choose to go LeFH over werfer if werfer has better ability to deal damage and can survive due to its mobility? I have no idea what the hell ML20 is supposed to be but in my mind that should also get the CB instead of making both sides equal in irrelevancy by removing CB from LeFH.

Make CB require micro practically does nothing since a competent player will not allow it to even exist in the first place anyway. Static Arty suck and the only real thing it really does is seal clubbing newbies no don't know how to counter it

You mean like the pak howie that got stuck in a nerf cycle for like 3 patches in a row? Pak Howie is probably around 3000x easier to kill than a fixed howitzer but it kept getting nerfed because "it killed too much with zero micro input and was frustrating for ostheer weapon teams to play against".

Sounds like something else we were talking about.

Thank you for the good faith comment, you atleast acknowledge its an aids ability with a huge micro tax against their opponent.

I would also like to see a big IDF rework. It such a huge component of war but implementations either come out as cheese, RNG cannon, laser guided munitions, or just plain shit.

The mortars in my opinion are finally mostly balanced and work well in all game modes AND they still keep some level of asymmetry that some people wont compromise on. Balance team should analyze what works for light IDF units and maybe try and translate that over. I know, I know, easier said than done but holy shit CB and maybe IDF overall needs a serious overhaul.

Mortars are "fine" primarily because of their short range, and the fact they only really work vs infantry. They're "vulnerable", but because they can move around this isnt really an issue for them, and the fact that they're "vulnerable" means a player can actually do something about them without having to REALLY go out of their way. The fact they don't do anything (meaningful) to vehicles also makes them have obvious weaknesses.

This is also helped by the fact that (almost) all factions have fairly equal access to mortars. The biggest outliers being the Pack Howitzer (being able to pretty strongly outrange axis mortars) and UKF, who are very vulnerable to mortars due to not actually having a mobile one of their own.



Howitzers being totally static means they simply need to have massive range, or they will get killed the second the enemy is able to push you. I made a thread suggesting what could be done about this a few weeks back, but it'd be a massive undertaking, sadly.

Dog, that wasnt the only CB to exist and its also its a mortar so its not sniping 130 fuel vehicles after one HALF a barrage. Other CBs got removed or nerfed like pip commented on. Do you remember this game in like 2013-14? Huge changes have happened since then, big overhauls, new units all kinds of things. So it used to be quite different.

Then about a combo less than 250 munitions to snipe out a unit that cost 400 Mp and 40 FU anywhere on the map then?

Then about a combo less than 250 munitions to snipe out a unit that cost 400 Mp and 40 FU anywhere on the map then?

Oh noooooo, 400 manpower and 40 fuel!!!! It should be a wunderwaffe!!! Theres nothing so expensive in the game, it has to be uncounterable!!!

You mean like the pak howie that got stuck in a nerf cycle for like 3 patches in a row? Pak Howie is probably around 3000x easier to kill than a fixed howitzer but it kept getting nerfed because "it killed too much with zero micro input and was frustrating for ostheer weapon teams to play against".

Sounds like something else we were talking about.

Static howitzers are either exceedingly easy (if you have an offmap) or exceedingly hard to deal with, that's part of their issue.

Also: The pack howitzer outranging axis indirects is what's considered the issue with it, I think. The main "counter" to a mortar is another mortar, but if your opponent can just sit out of range, what are you to do? (it's also the fact that it does pretty mental damage, especially when it gets the ludicrous HEAT barrage). It's cheap enough that you can't really blow an indirect on it like you can with a static howitzer, and the fact it can pick up and move means indirects aren't even that reliable. Thankfully OKW have the Stuka, or I think axis would be pretty stuck vs Pack Howitzers.

Oh noooooo, 400 manpower and 40 fuel!!!! It should be a wunderwaffe!!! Theres nothing so expensive in the game, it has to be uncounterable!!!

Oh no, all I lose in munition while I can keep grinding his manpower away while he keeps building those LeFh that I can bomb for the next 40 second

You can give the CB a pin point accuracy tracking and I hardly care since it a unit that can't even move to dodge anything unlike SPG and anyone can just nuke it

Oh noooooo, 400 manpower and 40 fuel!!!! It should be a wunderwaffe!!! Theres nothing so expensive in the game, it has to be uncounterable!!!

It shouldn't be so binary. It's fine that they can be killed, but you simply can't /do/ anything with the unit if the opponent has an adequate offmap, and that's the issue. Conversely, if your opponent DOESN'T have an adequate offmap, the thing is practically untouchable.

Come on man, you know the point he's making isnt "It shouldn't be able to be killed", it's that the unit type may as well not exist if your opponent has certain offmap options. Static arty is a bad fit for the game.

The issue is that CB was removed off other units for being unbalanced and a no skill micro ability, why does it get left on Lefh? The static howizters aren't shit, theyre just not as good as a static howitzer that kills things without having to micro so you can spend your attention resource elsewhere on the map while your opponent shift-u's a bunch of reverse orders and hope to god it wont hit him behind the fucking base lol.


At bare minimum if CB is kept on the weapon the range needs to be shortened drastically for the ability. I think we can all agree a howitzer killing your base sector on certain maps is a serious balance/design problem? If not, Id like to be able to call my offmaps on their base sector again please.

I seriously do not think that the two clicks you save of your APM per artillery salvo is an unbalanced or even relevant ability. And I think that LefH or ML20 should be able to snipe a katy in 4v4 or 3v3 as in practise this artillery has really short lifespan vs competitive players as someone is bound to always have an anti arty call in. I realize this is propably not the case for even a majority of coh2 teamgames where randoms just wanna play "fun" commanders but I think games should be designed and balanced by the viewpoint of competitive top players.

Also to adress the second point again I think that if player can use their artillery to fire barrages at the opponents base there propably are some other more concerning gameplay issues that the receiving end should worry about.