Intel/Recon - key to victrory

Since CoH2 is all about having the right intel at the right time, the game is all about knowing where the units of your opponent are to position/move your units in the right way. This is pretty much realistic because it was the same in reality. Intel is the key to victory in every battle.

There are three main ways to get direct sight
1. planes (Commander / nondoc officers) -> medium munition cost / short-medium timed / counterable with AA
2. recon units -> get better with vet / constant
3. unit flares -> low munition cost / long timed
(commander flares will be probably and rightfully patched out of the game as it seems, so I won’t include them)

Since vision is so important in this game I don’t understand the huge difference between factions. Especially at recon units. While I found no allied unit which has more than 55 sight including Vet we have the doctrinal scope and the Infrared HT. Infrared HT gives 75 sight, scoped 222 gives about 70 sight without vet and 90 sight (which is really “overkill”) with vet while not moving. Its already 60 sight for vetted 222 without scope.
The 55 sight seems to be carefully balanced about risk vs reward, you always risk loosing your vetted M20 for example because there are AT units which can snipe you at that distance if your opponent has vision by himself (nondoc: PAK at Ostheer, JPIV at OKW / plus doctrinal ones). So I don’t understand this riskless “overkill” constant sight at axis factions while extra sight at doctrinal Vet3 Greyhound was stripped for example.

Proposal:
- all recon units should be capped at 55 or 60 (222/Puma) sight with vet
- Scopes and Infrared HT should have timed munition costing abilities that give them their sight range bonus (similar to timed sight from unit flares)
- 90 sight for vetted and scoped 222 is overkill, lower a bit even if timed
- Greyhound should get back its sight bonus in form of a Vet 1 munition costing timed ability (as proposed for IR HT and scoped 222) which should disable the weapons too while activated. This is RECON company and it has neither flares nor a vehicle that has better sight as the nondoc M20 (only the Pathfinders which you get without artillery call-in at Airborne too = same sight as M20)


Yeah this seems to be all about nerf axis, and to be honest yeah it is. But you can’t just make such huge differences at the key element of this game. Axis recon vehicles counter allied recon vehicles, since IR HT or 222 (with vet and/or scope) plus PAK or JPIV = dead allied recon vehicle. This isn’t the case in reverse.

The huge sight bonus of recon units wouldn’t get stripped from axis, this would be unfair, because soviet has nondoc mortar flares and UKF/USF get somehow nondoc recon plane in the course of the battle. The difference is, that all recon abilites that give more than 55/60 sight should be activated for a given time and cost some munition. That way recon would be standardized about ranges and cost somehow but still be asymmetric in its form.

Things you might want to check:
SU-85 focus sight, SU-85 focus sight+trucking

T-70 vet 3 Recon mode

Valentine vet 1 reckon mode

Radio intercept ability

Spy net work ability

Armored vehicle detection ability

Signal array ability

Things you might want to check:
SU-85 focus sight, SU-85 focus sight+trucking

T-70 vet 3 Recon mode

Radio intercept ability

Spy net work ability

These three are very strong although people rarely utilise spy network and it only benefits USSR allies. But I think it is lowkey a great ability trapped in a meme commander.

T-70 is the risk of getting to vet 3 met with the late game recon reward so I think it is pretty fair.

Radio intercept is handy to see if the enemy is skipping tiers or if someone has built a HT on your side so you can prepare for a likely flame HT.


Tbh, I think we need to wait for commander flares to be removed and see where the chips fall after that.

At the moment I think both sides have potent recon options but they are all dwarfed by uncounterable flares.

Things you might want to check:
SU-85 focus sight, SU-85 focus sight+trucking

Nerfed already.

T-70 vet 3 Recon mode

Nerfed long time ago.

Valentine vet 1 reckon mode

Nerfed long time ago.

Everything else you've mentioned is non issue, never was and never will be, so you can take that of your
"to be nerfed" checkbox list.

These three are very strong although people rarely utilise spy network and it only benefits USSR allies. But I think it is lowkey a great ability trapped in a meme commander.

T-70 is the risk of getting to vet 3 met with the late game recon reward so I think it is pretty fair.

Radio intercept is handy to see if the enemy is skipping tiers or if someone has built a HT on your side so you can prepare for a likely flame HT.


Tbh, I think we need to wait for commander flares to be removed and see where the chips fall after that.

At the moment I think both sides have potent recon options but they are all dwarfed by uncounterable flares.

I keep hearing about those "uncounterable flares." but there are a number of abilities that are also "uncounterable":

Single pass planes now available in 3 factions as stock
Reckon plane from "Assault"
Flares from mortar cover
Flares from Croc

The flares from Ro Arty and Special Op need tweaks but they are hardy the only offenders and they do not need to be removed.

Things you might want to check:
SU-85 focus sight, SU-85 focus sight+trucking

T-70 vet 3 Recon mode

Valentine vet 1 reckon mode

Thanks for your additions:

T-70 Vet 3 Recon: Assuming you get your T-70 where it has 65 sight (sorry, I overlooked this, since you really can't count on getting it at Vet3) I would suggest to bring it inline with my proposed ranges or make a timed ability with munition cost out of it

Valentine vet 1 reckon mode: This is not much a problem, it gets 60 range (same as vetted 222/puma). So it can be shoot by AT. Wouldn't mind to set it to 55 too.

Things you might want to check:

Radio intercept ability

Spy net work ability

Armored vehicle detection ability

Signal array ability

Sorry that I didn’t make this clearer. I was talking about actual sight tools (so intel was misleading). Such abilities exist at axis factions too, but they are not my main issue in this thread.

Thanks for your additions:

T-70 Vet 3 Recon: Assuming you get your T-70 where it has 65 sight (sorry, I overlooked this, since you really can't count on getting it at Vet3) I would suggest to bring it inline with my proposed ranges or make a timed ability with munition cost out of it

Valentine vet 1 reckon mode: This is not much a problem, it gets 60 range (same as vetted 222/puma). So it can be shoot by AT. Wouldn't mind to set it to 55 too.




Sorry that I didn’t make it clearer. I was talking about actual sight tools (so intel was misleading).

Valentine vision should be closer to 63

T-70 should be around 68.25

SU-85 should be even bigger

I keep hearing about those "uncounterable flares." but there are a number of abilities that are also "uncounterable":

Single pass planes now available in 3 factions as stock
Reckon plane from "Assault"
Flares from mortar cover
Flares from Croc

The flares from Ro Arty and Special Op need tweaks but they are hardy the only offenders and they do not need to be removed.

Imo single pass planes are not a problem, because they give you only a very short time period for your vision and you pay about 50-60 munition for that. A circling plane gives you a short initial sight in most cases too plus additional vision if it doesn't get shoot down.

Off-map Flares should all be removed and exchanged with planes.

Valentine vision should be closer to 63

T-70 should be around 68.25

SU-85 should be even bigger

I wonder if sight is determined from centre of vehicle or from front/sides/rear since you can shoot a Valentine that can see you with a PAK if you can see it yourself. If determined from the centre (as assumed) it would be around 60 (Valentine) and 65 (Vet3 T-70).

As I said I wouldn't have a problem so set recon vehicles to 55, that way it would be always risk vs reward. Alternatively vision above 55 sould cost munition and should be timed.

Su-85 should cost a small amount of munition and end automatically after 30 seconds if not deactivated before.

Imo single pass planes are not a problem, because they give you only a very short time period for your vision and you pay about 50-60 munition for that. A circling plane gives you a short initial sight in most cases too plus additional vision if it doesn't get shoot down.

It is a problem because the can provide enough vision to call off map in target far behind enemy lines.

Off-map Flares should all be removed and exchanged with planes.

I don't think so.

Special operation flares could be changed to target the sector flag instead of anywhere in the map and have their CD greatly increased and they would probably be fine.

Ro Arty flares could target own front-line sector instead of enemies again be fine.

I wonder if sight is determined from centre of vehicle or from front/sides/rear since you can shoot a Valentine that can see you with a PAK if you can see it yourself. If determined from the centre (as assumed) it would be around 60 (Valentine) and 65 (Vet3 T-70).

As I said I wouldn't have a problem so set recon vehicles to 55, that way it would be always risk vs reward. Alternatively vision above 55 sould cost munition and should be timed.

I am using the modifier to calculate vision.

Su-85 should cost a small amount of munition and end automatically after 30 seconds if not deactivated before.

The combination of focus sight and trucking give vision above 70 (if I remember correctly)

I am using the modifier to calculate vision.

That didn't answer my question if it is determined from the centre of the vehicle/tank which would lead to less real sight if the vehicle/tank is bigger. Valentine is for example bigger than M20 or T70.

The combination of focus sight and trucking give vision above 70 (if I remember correctly)

Yeah, so it would be a good thing to make SU-85 pay for activation similar to the ability of the USF 57mm-AT-Gun which has to pay for it Vet1 ability too.

That didn't answer my question if it is determined from the centre of the vehicle/tank which would lead to less real sight if the vehicle/tank is bigger. Valentine is for example bigger than M20 or T70.



Yeah, so it would be a good thing to make SU-85 pay for activation similar to the ability of the USF 57mm-AT-Gun which has to pay for it Vet1 ability too.

I would have to guess the center of the vehicle since the vision sight is circle...

I would have to guess the center of the vehicle since the vision sight is circle...

So, after discussion I would make this proposal for recon vehicles/tanks. I tried to take into account the size of the vehicles, giving a +2 bonus for light vehicles and +3 for light tanks:

- set IR halftrack to 62 sight range
- set 222 and M20 to 47 sight range without vet and 62 with vet
- give IR Ht and scoped 222 (if not moving) an ability to get 30 seconds +15 sight for about 20 munition (resulting in 77 sight range)

- set Valentine, T-70 to 35 sight range without vet and 45 with vet (delete further vet bonus at Vet3 for T70), give +18 sight in recon mode which costs about 20 munition to activate, disables main gun but not movement -> ability ends automatically after 30 seconds (resulting in 63 range)

- set Greyhound to 45 sight range without vet and 55 with vet, give it a recon mode ability which grants +12 sight, costs about 20 munition to activate, disables main gun but not movement -> ability ends automatically after 30 seconds (resulting in 67 range)

- add a cost of maybe 15 munition for Su-85, ability ends automatically after 30 seconds

That way light recon vehicles could stay out of the shooting distance from AT-Guns and light tanks with more survivability would have to get at the corner of this shooting distance in recon mode.

Being in between the light recon vehicles and the light tanks, Greyhound should land slightly above the sight range of T-70 and Valentine (and its Recon Company after all).

So, after discussion I would make this proposal for recon vehicles/tanks. I tried to take into account the size of the vehicles, giving a +2 bonus for light vehicles and +3 for light tanks:

- set IR halftrack to 62 sight range
- set 222 and M20 to 47 sight range without vet and 62 with vet
- give IR Ht and scoped 222 (if not moving) an ability to get 30 seconds +15 sight for about 20 munition (resulting in 77 sight range)

- set Valentine, T-70 to 35 sight range without vet and 45 with vet (delete further vet bonus at Vet3 for T70), give +18 sight in recon mode which costs about 20 munition to activate, disables main gun but not movement -> ability ends automatically after 30 seconds (resulting in 63 range)

- set Greyhound to 45 sight range without vet and 55 with vet, give it a recon mode ability which grants +12 sight, costs about 20 munition to activate, disables main gun but not movement -> ability ends automatically after 30 seconds (resulting in 67 range)

- add a cost of maybe 15 munition for Su-85, ability ends automatically after 30 seconds

That way light recon vehicles could stay out of the shooting distance from AT-Guns and light tanks with more survivability would have to get at the corner of this shooting distance in recon mode.

Being in between the light recon vehicles and the light tanks, Greyhound should land slightly above the sight range of T-70 and Valentine (and its Recon Company after all).

IR vehicle has a sight of 35 it should have more.

Having to spend munition for extra sight is also not a good idea since its it sole role it provide vision.

Same with spotting scopes. Having to spend 30 munition for an upgrade that does nothing and only allow you to spend more monition for sight does not really make sense especially sine a Soviet mortar can fire flare...

Reckon abilities should simple be timed abilities.

IR vehicle has a sight of 35 it should have more.

Having to spend munition for extra sight is also not a good idea since its it sole role it provide vision.

Same with spotting scopes. Having to spend 30 munition for an upgrade that does nothing and only allow you to spend more monition for sight does not really make sense especially sine a Soviet mortar can fire flare...

Reckon abilities should simple be timed abilities.

IR HT: I meant standing still in its recon mode of course. Its okay that is has 35 while moving. Its sole role is providing vision and because of that it provides nondoc superior vision (75 atm and 77 in my proposal -> +2 because of unit size). You can make HT IR HT cheaper if it is to expensive, but getting superior vision should cost something every time you use it.

Tulips cost you two times too (purchase + activation), but if you ask me Scopes can be passively free or be cheaper at least, if their acivation cost something.

If all recon abilities above 60 sight would be timed abilities this would be already a huge gain, even without mun cost. But Imo a small mun cost on top would be even better.

IR HT: I meant standing still in its recon mode of course. Its okay that is has 35 while moving. Its sole role is providing vision and because of that it provides nondoc superior vision (75 atm and 77 in my proposal -> +2 because of unit size).

I would have to guess that vision start from the center of hit box which is not necerelly the same as the visual representation.

IRHT is reckon vehicle and as that is should not vision of 35.

In addition to cost to purchase IRHT has a pop of 5 and thus an upkeep. Having a unit laying around waiting for CD to cool down so you can spend munition to get less vision from one can get from firing flares from units is simply bad design.

You can make HT IR HT cheaper if it is to expensive, but getting superior vision should cost something every time you use it.

Not for vehicles with cost and upkeep with weapon or other utility.

Reckon abilities for vehicles should be free with CD.

(IRHT should probably become doctrinal with synergy with IR Panther/Vamp ST44)

Tulips cost you two times too (purchase + activation), but if you ask me Scopes can be passively free or be cheaper at least, if their acivation cost something.

tulips do damage and stun there is little comparison.

If all recon abilities above 60 sight would be timed abilities this would be already a huge gain, even without mun cost. But Imo a small mun cost on top would be even better.

Not if other that do damage can fire flares and get better vision.

I would have to guess that vision start from the center of hit box which is not necerelly the same as the visual representation.

IRHT is reckon vehicle and as that is should not vision of 35.

In addition to cost to purchase IRHT has a pop of 5 and thus an upkeep. Having a unit laying around waiting for CD to cool down so you can spend munition to get less vision from one can get from firing flares from units is simply bad design.



Not for vehicles with cost and upkeep with weapon or other utility.

Reckon abilities for vehicles should be free with CD.

(IRHT should probably become doctrinal with synergy with IR Panther/Vamp ST44)




tulips do damage and stun there is little comparison.


Not if other that do damage can fire flares and get better vision.

If you ever make a thread to discuss things to tone down and they happen to be axis, vipper will spam your thread with nonsensical gip gallosh like bringing up units that should have 63(???????) sight range.

If you say "hey I think spotting scopes should atleast be a muni activated ability to add some micro burden to a crazy good ability" he'll just reply the IRHT should actually have more vision than it does now lmao. Dude just derails every thread someone posts in good faith.

If you ever make a thread to discuss things to tone down and they happen to be axis, vipper will spam your thread with nonsensical gip gallosh like bringing up units that should have 63(???????) sight range.

If you say "hey I think spotting scopes should atleast be a muni activated ability to add some micro burden to a crazy good ability" he'll just reply the IRHT should actually have more vision than it does now lmao. Dude just derails every thread someone posts in good faith.

My suggestions to you is to focus on the arguments and not the people.

Do you believe that reckon vehicles like IRHT should have a sight of 35?
If so do you have any argument to back up that belief?

My suggestions to you is to focus on the arguments and not the people.

Do you believe that reckon vehicles like IRHT should have a sight of 35?
If so do you have any argument to back up that belief?

Yeah 35 sounds good to me, its just as arbitary a point like anything else you pick (63?????)

But the point vipper, that you always seem to miss, is that wasn't the discussion of what OP put forward. Have you ever wondered why you start so many threads that begin with a quote from another thread with you saying "it was off topic"? Because you derail almost every thread you jump in, specifically if it has anything to do with a slight axis change. Like he just said spotting scopes should be a muni activated ability, stated his case with the evidence you demanded from me, and you just drone on about IRHT. Its very hard to actually discuss what OP wanted to discuss in that environment.