New penal ptrs feels a bit much

Stop it! You're scaring them with facts and logic. Didn't you know that AT squads should not be effective vs tanks?

Apparently some people got so used to PTRS being POS for years they they refuse to accept it as a valid threat now...
They'll learn eventually, just need to lose some tanks and let the denial period pass.

And you can reliably engage and disengage without fear of any surprising alpha strike.
You think a tank does not needs to be repaired after being in range of shrecks for few seconds?

You will ALWAYS NEED TO REPAIR ALL VEHICLES after you, you know, PUT THEM IN RANGE OF ANTI TANK WEAPONS for some time.

I guess i'll wait for your opinion when(if) Penals get more prevalent.

Does anyone feel the new(3) ptrs on penal does a bit too much chip damage to tanks. I certainly find the constant chip from them to be a bit much. They are just harder to deal with Tanks. With things like Shrek PG's or Zook Rangers you can push them around a bit prevent them from firing and crush em in the process. But the thing with them is either they do a ton of damage if they hit or do nothing when they don't. But the constant high chip from the penals just makes very difficult to deal with.

From Tightrope's testing we know that even current upgraded penals usually lose to a pz IV, even factoring in some cover so.....just shoot their faces off with an Auf J or Brummbar. Problem solved. Easy veterancy.

Personally I use them for ober/pzgren xp farm but up to you.

Shit tier upgrade still, why would you neuter your anti infantry that you paid 290 for when you could just get an m42 lol.

Shit tier upgrade still, why would you neuter your anti infantry that you paid 290 for when you could just get an m42 lol.

Yes it more of faction design issues than performance issue.

Shit tier upgrade still, why would you neuter your anti infantry that you paid 290 for when you could just get an m42 lol.

Depends if you are using a commander with an M42, really. Admittedly those commanders are fairly meta, right? Unrelated, but are we expecting the Balance team to have a look at Canister Shot at any point? My understanding is that it's kinda useless.

I haven't had a chance to play the game since the patch hit, but I should imagine AT penals are fairly strong now, especially against light vehicles, where they're undeniably MUCH more reliable than Shrecks, PIATs, or Zooks, and I think (Dependent on the actual RoF of Shrecks vs PTRS) they might be guaranteed to kill many lights faster than Shrecks. Seralia doesnt seem to have been updated with the new statistics for the weapon, so when it does I think I'm going to try and do some calculations to see exactly how they stack up (On paper, obviously) vs other AT solutions.

I don't imagine they're anywhere near as good vs mediums/heavies as Shrecks or even Piats/zooks are, just because of their low penetration, even if they are guaranteed to do damage on every shot. Sort of nice (for soviet) that they're impossible to outrange by most AT tanks, incidentally... though this isnt really that big a deal in practice.

I'm also interested to see exactly what their DPS and general effectiveness vs infantry/tanks looks like post patch both with and without their upgrade. Their veterancy changes are guaranteed to have improved their sustained AT performance, but I don't know if its made them worse against infantry or not, I'm unsure how the accuracy -> RA conversion actually affects them in terms of AI duties.

Depends if you are using a commander with an M42, really. Admittedly those commanders are fairly meta, right? Unrelated, but are we expecting the Balance team to have a look at Canister Shot at any point? My understanding is that it's kinda useless.
...

M-42 already has has abilities and does need the canister shot which was a bad idea to add in the first place.

It was OP when it had it full range so they reduce the range instead of removing it.

I don't imagine they're anywhere near as good vs mediums/heavies as Shrecks or even Piats/zooks are, just because of their low penetration, even if they are guaranteed to do damage on every shot. Sort of nice (for soviet) that they're impossible to outrange by most AT tanks, incidentally... though this isnt really that big a deal in practice.

Penal are inline with AT squad vs mediums.

Apparently some people got so used to PTRS being POS for years they they refuse to accept it as a valid threat now...
They'll learn eventually, just need to lose some tanks and let the denial period pass.

Nice to see that you finally accepted that PTRS are valid threads to tanks.

Also a nice narrative but is simply does not add up.

These are the changes PTRS had:

"Infantry-Based AT Rifles - Boys AT Rifles, PTRS-41

AT Rifles are being made more responsive, making it more difficult to dodge the opening volley and in-line with other infantry AT weapons. Furthermore, AT Rifles can now use attack ground and will have a projectile to soft counter abilities such as smoke.

Ready-aim time from 1.25 to 0.5
PTRS Rifles can now attack ground and has a projectile"

And 0.625 ready aim time difference and projectile did not turn them from bad to a valid thread to tanks.

Penal are inline with AT squad vs mediums.

In what sense? They don't have the burst damage of Shrecks, Zooks, or PIATs, and even their sustained damage is not fantastic due to their low penetration. You have to hit certain breakpoints of damage for things to be useful, which is why, for example, if you had three tanks;

A: 160 damage a shot
B: 161 damage a shot
C: 159 damage a shot

A and B are approximately equal, but C is effectively 25% weaker.

In what sense? They don't have the burst damage of Shrecks, Zooks, or PIATs, and even their sustained damage is not fantastic due to their low penetration. You have to hit certain breakpoints of damage for things to be useful, which is why, for example, if you had three tanks;

A: 160 damage a shot
B: 161 damage a shot
C: 159 damage a shot

A and B are approximately equal, but C is effectively 25% weaker.

Test or calculate their TTK vs medium tanks.

And 0.625 ready aim time difference and projectile did not turn them from bad to a valid thread to tanks.

I expect what made them more of a threat was the fact that Penals have 50% more of them now, rather than either of those changes (Though both were a nice buff, especially the latter). You're being a bit disingenuous here.

Test or calculate their TTK vs medium tanks.

I will be doing, once Seralia has their updated statistics, and I can be sure I have the correct stats onhand.

Deflection damage is 25% of the original damage.

PS: 30/120
Elite zook: 25/100
Piat: 25/100
Zook: 20/80
PTRS: 10/40

For those who don't understand why the values of infantry AT is low on the stats page, it's because the game uses target tables to give bonus damage depending on target. This was done so AT weapons don't have effective AI and reduce xp gain (IIRC).

snip

I made a small test during the patch preview.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/106984/winter-balance-update-sov-feedback/page/49#post_id846108


The problem with the current state of Penals PTRS is that it still doubles down on cheesy play to be effective (M3 combination against LV) while been decent against medium tanks on a defensive stance, a role which already is fulfilled by a miriage of other units.


For all other 4 factions, if someone is spamming FF, Stug/PV/JPIV, Jackson, Su85 or the big heavy TDs, you consider getting infantry AT to put pressure on them.
I don't think you can ever justify back teching T1 or getting Penals just for their PTRS.

The problem with the current state of Penals PTRS is that it still doubles down on cheesy play to be effective (M3 combination against LV) while been decent against medium tanks on a defensive stance, a role which already is fulfilled by a miriage of other units.

Very good point. Do you think a change to make Infantry AT unable to fire from a moving vehicle (Or fire from a vehicle at all, perhaps, as the former is also cheesable) would be a good idea? It would leave room to improve PTRS performance in other areas without them being unbearably cheesy.

It would also nerf the Pgren Battle Bus and similar tactics, if you applied a change like that broadly, but maybe that's also a good thing.

For all other 4 factions, if someone is spamming FF, Stug/PV/JPIV, Jackson, Su85 or the big heavy TDs, you consider getting infantry AT to put pressure on them.
I don't think you can ever justify back teching T1 or getting Penals just for their PTRS.

This is fair. I think the only ways around this would either be to give PTRS increased utility (Through giving them interesting abilities, like a tread shot or some other sort of "aimed shot/micro snare" ability), or to bite the proverbial bullet and turn them into a reskinned zook/shreck by removing their infinite accuracy advantage, and increasing both their pen/damage while reducing their RoF. Either of these would make them more attractive lategame, i imagine.

I mean, unless people are happy with the current state of affairs... though are they really?

I expect what made them more of a threat was the fact that Penals have 50% more of them now, rather than either of those changes (Though both were a nice buff, especially the latter). You're being a bit disingenuous here.



I will be doing, once Seralia has their updated statistics, and I can be sure I have the correct stats onhand.

There is not disingenuous in my response to the claim has to do with PTRS not Penals that did get an extra PTRS.

There is not disingenuous in my response to the claim has to do with PTRS not Penals that did get an extra PTRS.

The thread is about Penals and their PTRS, Vipper. Nobody's mentioned Guards, especially as they have utility against tanks beyond their PTRS, so the logical thing to think is that he's talking about Penal PTRS being a threat.

If we were talking about Panzergrens and their shrecks, you wouldn't assume someone was referring to Partisans if they didn't specifically mention Pgrens in their post, would you? Nor would you think someone was talking about Ranger SuperZooks when they were posting in a thread about Rear Echelon zook performance? (Especially since the Penal PTRS isnt the same as the Guard one)

The thread is about Penals and their PTRS, Vipper. Nobody's mentioned Guards, especially as they have utility against tanks beyond their PTRS, so the logical thing to think is that he's talking about Penal PTRS being a threat.

If we were talking about Panzergrens and their shrecks, you wouldn't assume someone was referring to Partisans if they didn't specifically mention Pgrens in their post, would you? Nor would you think someone was talking about Ranger SuperZooks when they were posting in a thread about Rear Echelon zook performance? (Especially since the Penal PTRS isnt the same as the Guard one)

Now read again the post I have responded to, among the insult to players, you will see it clearly says PTRS where bad and now they have become valid thread to tanks.

My point is that the changes to PTRS are good but the the did not transform the weapon especially vs medium tanks. Projectile affect only smoke interaction and aim time effect mostly light vehicles.

I would argue that PTRS used to be better vs mediums tanks since they had double the deflection damage

I made my point and have little to add so I suggest we move on.

Now read again the post I have responded to, among the insult to players, you will see it clearly says PTRS where bad and now they have become valid thread to tanks.

Context indicates that its' specifically about Penals PTRS, if you read the various posts, Vipper.

My point is that the changes to PTRS are good but the the did not transform the weapon especially vs medium tanks. Projectile affect only smoke interaction and aim time effect mostly light vehicles.

Yes, fine, but again, the thread, and these posts, are clearly talking about Penal PTRS squads, which had the further change of a third rifle being added. This is what people are indicating as making PTRS a threat now, not the other changes.

You are mistaken if you believe otherwise, though feel free to just ask what people meant.

Context indicates that its' specifically about Penals PTRS, if you read the various posts, Vipper.




Yes, fine, but again, the thread, and these posts, are clearly talking about Penal PTRS squads, which had the further change of a third rifle being added. This is what people are indicating as making PTRS a threat now, not the other changes.

You are mistaken if you believe otherwise, though feel free to just ask what people meant.

This is my last post on the matter because this is quite pointless.

PTRS are weapons available to different squads. Penals are a squad and not a weapon.

I do not really make difference which versions of PTRS the post was about about, it only matter that the post was about the weapon and not a squad.

The weapon recievd minor adjustments (that I had also suggested myself) and it has simply was not turned from crap to gold. The weapon was ok to begin with and adding an extra PTRS on Penal had no effect on the weapon itself.

The penal squad on the other hand where and remain badly designed.

PTRS is weapons available to different squads. Penals are a squad and not a weapon.

Correct, but irrelevant. The weapon doesn't act on its own, all posts in the thread (and the thread itself) are not talking about the PTRS weapon alone, but the PTRS specifically being used by Penals. Context dictates this, its an (intentional?) misunderstanding on your part.

I do not really make difference which versions of PTRS the post was about but it was about the PTRS weapons and not the Penals.

Every single other person is talking about PTRS in the context of Penals. Not a single other person was referring solely to the two adjustments you are speaking about. The discussion is on Penals and their use of the PTRS, that is the long and short of it.

The weapon had minor adjustment that I had also suggested myself and it has simply was not turned from crap to gold. The weapon was ok.

Again, irrelevant. Everyone is discussing Penals and their use of the PTRS, even when using the shorthand "PTRS". We all know what changes were made to the rifle, and they are not what is being suggested as being the improvement to its performance here.

Please stop being pedantic. We know the aim-time and projectile aren't what turned the weapon from "crap to gold".

Deflection damage is 25% of the original damage.

PS: 30/120
Elite zook: 25/100
Piat: 25/100
Zook: 20/80
PTRS: 10/40

wait, zooks and shreks have deflect damage then why do they sometimes fail to kill tanks on low hp when they are deflected???

The problem with the current state of Penals PTRS is that it still doubles down on cheesy play to be effective (M3 combination against LV)

I really find this to be cheap. it's only really effective against ost who's vehicle hp's and their cost as well is low.