Fussiliers vs IS

Only if you compare vs 5 men Fusiliers.
Otherwise it is 606 HP of IS vs 623 of Panzerfusiliers.

IS have a 0.62 RA while Füssiliers have 0.77.

5x 80 HP with 0.62 RA ends up being 645 and 6x 80 HP with 0.77 RA is 623. This is in cover though so your numbers are probably out of cover. But THB in late-game the whole map is full of yellow cover anyway so the out of cover debuff rarely applies. And considering vet 3 IS and vet 5 PF don't arrive in early game I think it's better to compare it that way.

IS have a 0.62 RA while Füssiliers have 0.77.

5x 80 HP with 0.62 RA ends up being 645 and 6x 80 HP with 0.77 RA is 623. This is in cover though so your numbers are probably out of cover. But THB in late-game the whole map is full of yellow cover anyway so the out of cover debuff rarely applies. And considering vet 3 IS and vet 5 PF don't arrive in early game I think it's better to compare it that way.

I got the number from serealia where it says 0,66 RA for vet 3 IS. Is that one wrong?

I got the number from serealia where it says 0,66 RA for vet 3 IS. Is that one wrong?

It probably is the value for out of cover while I used 0.62 RA which is the value in cover? Not sure to be honest.

I used the value from coh2db.com/stats

Doesn't really matter anyway as I was using this value to explain one of the other people in the thread that that Füssiliers may have an additional man but that doesn't make them more durable in infantry combat due to their RA being quite high compared to Infantry Sections.

You're not taking into account the fact that Fusies have six men, either squad's EHP, nor the fact that a significant portion of the Fusie's damage is loaded onto their G43s, meaning they lose significantly less DPS for each model loss (Especially before they lose their fourth model).

Raw DPS isnt a meaningful statistic by itself as far as unit performance is concerned. Test these fights in-game and see how they actually do.

Also: Are the numbers you're giving for Sections for if they're in, or out of cover? They have a different DPS profile dependent on which you're looking at, y'know.

Im not completely sure if the numbers are in cover or out of cover. But its not that meaningful cause a, there is plenty of yellow cover later on and b, their cooldown debuff/buff doesnt affect enfields that much. Its more punishing for brens or vickers. So the numbers for enfields stay almost the same.

And dmg is the best statistic to see whats the optimal range for infantry match-ups. I just wanted to point out that Füssies are not that good long range (nice ingame description btw) and you shouldnt use them like Obers or other lmg squads. Their advantage is the excellent moving acc/dmg and their dmg around range 5-15/20. The dmg of their g43 is almost the same as volks k98 at range 35 btw. So having 3 g43 with 3 models left is no big advantage.

Edit: About the next balance patch.

I heard that some balance team member suggested to buff their k98 and nerf the g43, so the squad is better early on and the same later on. But i dont think power creeping them into viable status is the way to go. The problem is that Füssies are more or less the same as Volks. Midrange squad with snare for early/midgame until Obers arrive. In Theory there is no reason to get both. Either Füssies are better and you take them all of the time or they are worse and you dont take them at all.

I suggested to give volks mp40 instead of stgs stock. That would give Füssies a unique role instead of slightly better/worse volks clone. But i dont think such an heavy base roster change is doable anymore. So why not take Füssies in a different direction? And cause Okw has enough powerful, expensive combat squads like Obers, Falls or Jli, why not go in the other direction? Cheap, utility squad like Cons or Osttruppen. Nerf the dmg output, put the flare behind vet and put them around 200-240 manpower with slightly cheaper reinforce.
Now Okw has some cheap meatshield units. Could be problematic in 1vs1 though (see Osttruppen).

Im not completely sure if the numbers are in cover or out of cover. But its not that meaningful cause a, there is plenty of yellow cover later on and b, their cooldown debuff/buff doesnt affect enfields that much. Its more punishing for brens or vickers. So the numbers for enfields stay almost the same.

And dmg is the best statistic to see whats the optimal range for infantry match-ups. I just wanted to point out that Füssies are not that good long range (nice ingame description btw) and you shouldnt use them like Obers or other lmg squads. Their advantage is the excellent moving acc/dmg and their dmg around range 5-15/20. The dmg of their g43 is almost the same as volks k98 at range 35 btw. So having 3 g43 with 3 models left is no big advantage.

Edit: About the next balance patch.

I heard that some balance team member suggested to buff their k98 and nerf the g43, so the squad is better early on and the same later on. But i dont think power creeping them into viable status is the way to go. The problem is that Füssies are more or less the same as Volks. Midrange squad with snare for early/midgame until Obers arrive. In Theory there is no reason to get both. Either Füssies are better and you take them all of the time or they are worse and you dont take them at all.

I suggested to give volks mp40 instead of stgs stock. That would give Füssies a unique role instead of slightly better/worse volks clone. But i dont think such an heavy base roster change is doable anymore. So why not take Füssies in a different direction? And cause Okw has enough powerful, expensive combat squads like Obers, Falls or Jli, why not go in the other direction? Cheap, utility squad like Cons or Osttruppen. Nerf the dmg output, put the flare behind vet and put them around 200-240 manpower with slightly cheaper reinforce.
Now Okw has some cheap meatshield units. Could be problematic in 1vs1 though (see Osttruppen).

You are forgetting the double PS upgrade

Im not completely sure if the numbers are in cover or out of cover. But its not that meaningful cause a, there is plenty of yellow cover later on and b, their cooldown debuff/buff doesnt affect enfields that much. Its more punishing for brens or vickers. So the numbers for enfields stay almost the same.

And dmg is the best statistic to see whats the optimal range for infantry match-ups. I just wanted to point out that Füssies are not that good long range (nice ingame description btw) and you shouldnt use them like Obers or other lmg squads. Their advantage is the excellent moving acc/dmg and their dmg around range 5-15/20. The dmg of their g43 is almost the same as volks k98 at range 35 btw. So having 3 g43 with 3 models left is no big advantage.

Edit: About the next balance patch.

I heard that some balance team member suggested to buff their k98 and nerf the g43, so the squad is better early on and the same later on. But i dont think power creeping them into viable status is the way to go. The problem is that Füssies are more or less the same as Volks. Midrange squad with snare for early/midgame until Obers arrive. In Theory there is no reason to get both. Either Füssies are better and you take them all of the time or they are worse and you dont take them at all.

I suggested to give volks mp40 instead of stgs stock. That would give Füssies a unique role instead of slightly better/worse volks clone. But i dont think such an heavy base roster change is doable anymore. So why not take Füssies in a different direction? And cause Okw has enough powerful, expensive combat squads like Obers, Falls or Jli, why not go in the other direction? Cheap, utility squad like Cons or Osttruppen. Nerf the dmg output, put the flare behind vet and put them around 200-240 manpower with slightly cheaper reinforce.
Now Okw has some cheap meatshield units. Could be problematic in 1vs1 though (see Osttruppen).

Cooldown reductions shouldn't have any less an effect on Enfields when compared to Brens, how are you determining this? As far as I'm aware, Cooldown is part of the "delay" between shots/bursts, and its' reduction is a decent increase in DPS even for Enfields.

I agree, they're not best used long range, their damage profile is indeed more suited to close-range engagements, against all logic... but they still do beat non-brenned sections.

G43 max range vs K98 max range is pretty close, but fights aren't always at precisely max range, and the disparity starts to become rather severe even at 30 range. 3.5~ dps for a G43 vs 3.1~ for a K98 at veterancy, and it only balloons from there. The g43s also lose very little DPS if the squad has to reposition during the fight, whereas a K98 loses a significant amount of damage.

Regardless of all this, I implore you to merely do some tests ingame and see for yourself how Fusiliers do in various situations compared to Sections.

As an aside: The Balance team making Fusilier K98s better while nerfing their G43s will kind of make the squad weaker, due to G43s being transferable. They'll be losing more DPS (Especially at closer ranges) per model loss in comparison to how much they lose now.

It probably is the value for out of cover while I used 0.62 RA which is the value in cover? Not sure to be honest.

I used the value from coh2db.com/stats

Doesn't really matter anyway as I was using this value to explain one of the other people in the thread that that Füssiliers may have an additional man but that doesn't make them more durable in infantry combat due to their RA being quite high compared to Infantry Sections.

I would imagine that the value on Seralia is in cover, as the section's cover "bonus" is a debuff when they leave cover, rather than a buff when they enter it. .66 is probably the "default" value, and this number gets higher when they leave cover. Not entirely certain though, maybe you're right. Despite this, Sections do still lose more damage per model loss, and from my own testing, upgraded Fusiliers do indeed win vs them.

The only real advantage they have compared to volks is the flare. They are worse than volks combatwise early on and not nearly as good as obers later on. Since all allied early vehicles got nerfed even the snare isnt that useful anymore. Jli and falls are just way more useful and supplement volks better.
vet3 sections unupgraded / vet 5 upgraded füssies / vet 5 unupgraded Obers

Max range dmg: 18,43 / 17,24 / 20,67

Conclusio: Upgraded Füssies lose vs unupgraded Section long range (even out of cover)

Well, they are 6 man and I feel like they're better than Volks at long range once upgraded. I know they're aboslute dogshit early game though, that's why I get 3 Volks first if I even decide to go with a fourth Fusilier.

Four volks into fusies? That feels like rather too much investment into non-elite infantry to me. Fusies are a Volk "replacement", not so much a "supplemental" unit. I'd normally go one/three volks into one/three fusies, dependent on the matchup/mode. A fifth infantry squad would be better off being an Ober rather than a fusie, if damage dealing is what you want.

Also: Upgraded Fusies still get molested by Bren sections, I'm afraid.

Reading comprehension. Reread my post again.

Reading comprehension. Reread my post again.

Hm, I did miss the "As the fourth" for some reason, and just read "If i get four mainlines... I'd get fusies as a (fifth)". It was rather late at the time.

I think that people are forgetting that you are quite likely to be dead before you get vet III G43 pzfusiliers vs UKF

Worse than volks early game combined with the atrocious early game vs UKF is an even more atrocious combo.

...
As an aside: The Balance team making Fusilier K98s better while nerfing their G43s will kind of make the squad weaker, due to G43s being transferable. They'll be losing more DPS (Especially at closer ranges) per model loss in comparison to how much they lose now.
...

Their performance would become worse than the cheaper penals...

Their performance would become worse than the cheaper penals...

That depends on how much you buff their k98. You (in theory) could buff their overall dmg to svt Penals/k98 Obers dmg level and adjust their initial manpower cost.

About IS vs Pfussies:
It doesnt matter if Sections or Füssies win barely long range. What matters is that long range is the worst range for okw in that matchup. So you should always try to close the distance.

And about Shreck Füssies: Tbh i havent seen them since months. Idk how viable they are. But i guess they would work better with cheaper base/reinforce cost.

Cooldown reductions shouldn't have any less an effect on Enfields when compared to Brens, how are you determining this? As far as I'm aware, Cooldown is part of the "delay" between shots/bursts, and its' reduction is a decent increase in DPS even for Enfields.

Because the general cooldown values for LMG are way higher vs bolt action rifles. If say one is 0.5 and the other is 1.5, if both are affected by a 20% increase, the first one goes up by +0.1 and the other by +0.3

Note that any change in any stat other than Dmg and accuracy doesn't translate linearly to changes in DPS. Cause more or less the equation is Dmg x Accuracy x (All other factors go in here)

That depends on how much you buff their k98. You (in theory) could buff their overall dmg to svt Penals/k98 Obers dmg level and adjust their initial manpower cost.

About IS vs Pfussies:
It doesnt matter if Sections or Füssies win barely long range. What matters is that long range is the worst range for okw in that matchup. So you should always try to close the distance.

And about Shreck Füssies: Tbh i havent seen them since months. Idk how viable they are. But i guess they would work better with cheaper base/reinforce cost.

I think what you'd need to do, if you wanted to buff Fusie early-game performance for whatever reason, is to move some of their vet accuracy to their base kit, this does as people seem to want: Buffs them early, and makes 0 difference lategame.

Panzerfusiliers do have a fairly notable strength of their immediate AT grenade, and I think generally this is what people pick them up early on for.

Ultimately; Panzerfusiliers have the current design of being Volksgrenadier- in combat terms in the early game, and Volksgrenadier++ in the lategame, as they have the same preferred ranges, and broadly the same abilities.

If you make them equally as strong as Volksgrenadiers in the early game, but still stronger than them in the lategame, they're pretty much a no-brainer upgrade. The only thing they lack over Volksgrenadiers is the ability to build green cover... but they're a more mobile squad by design.

If you want them to be supplemental to Volksgrenadiers, rather than a "replacement" unit, then the ideal is that one unit or the other (or both) changes its' design a bit, so they don't do what is basically the same job. Fusies having their G43s tailored to midrange performance, and Volks having their STGs replaced with the occasionally suggested MP40s, for example. Alternatively: fusies are made into an "elite" infantry variant, like JLI, Fallschirmjager, or Obersoldaten, rather than being intended as "mainline".

None of this is more than a theoretical discussion though, there are far too many changes here for the Balance team to consider with the resources they have, and with how reasonably well OKW functions right now. Maybe if OKW return in CoH3 (lel) then anything in this realm might happen.




I think it still does matter if Fusies win at long range, if they do then non-brenned sections don't HAVE a range in which they beat Fusies, as Fusies' weakest range is at 35, and they ramp up very quickly from there. You should always try to close the distance, of course, but you don't "need" to to win, and that's worth knowing. Anyway, the thread was about some guy thinking 5man Sections beat Fusies in every scenario for some reason, so that's all that was really being discussed.

My understanding is that Shreck fusies are one of the strongest AT squad in the game. Do they need a buff?

Because the general cooldown values for LMG are way higher vs bolt action rifles. If say one is 0.5 and the other is 1.5, if both are affected by a 20% increase, the first one goes up by +0.1 and the other by +0.3

Note that any change in any stat other than Dmg and accuracy doesn't translate linearly to changes in DPS. Cause more or less the equation is Dmg x Accuracy x (All other factors go in here)

Good point. I don't think the DPS change for their Enfields within and without cover is negligible though, is it? Perhaps I'm overestimating its' impact, and its mostly the RA changes that make the difference in their performance before they get their Brens.

...

Depends on the type/value of the weapon. For bolt action (at least Grens/Con) it was roughly translating to 20% of the cooldown value to DPS. So if the benefit was say -5% CD, it was only around 1.20% more DPS. When i run the numbers for PTRS it was around 45%.

Something similar (although even more drastic) with reload.

I just wanted to point out that Füssies are not that good long range (nice ingame description btw)

Yeah that ingame description along with people automatically believing that g43s at LR> STGs at LR (Not really their fault considering the wildly varying dmg profiles of the stg in this game) has caused a lot of people to believe that Pfussies are suppose to be better at long range, when in reality they preform pretty poorly for their cost at long range compared to volks and should always close to mid range against non elite cqb squads.

Yeah that ingame description along with people automatically believing that g43s at LR> STGs at LR (Not really their fault considering the wildly varying dmg profiles of the stg in this game) has caused a lot of people to believe that Pfussies are suppose to be better at long range, when in reality they preform pretty poorly for their cost at long range compared to volks and should always close to mid range against non elite cqb squads.

Yeah newer players can hardly be faulted for never considering that a semi-automatic rifle is an assault rifle in disguise in terms of dps profile. Tbh there are so many hidden stats the vast majority of players will never come across and thus they only have rudimentary estimations of capabilities from field experience. Not a criticism of the players but the reality that the G43 thing is not a one-off. Snares come to mind as well.

Yeah newer players can hardly be faulted for never considering that a semi-automatic rifle is an assault rifle in disguise in terms of dps profile. Tbh there are so many hidden stats the vast majority of players will never come across and thus they only have rudimentary estimations of capabilities from field experience. Not a criticism of the players but the reality that the G43 thing is not a one-off. Snares come to mind as well.

I have to be honest, I think the G43 is one of the worst offenders here. Other weapons (K98, Mosin, PPSH, MP40, STG, etcetera) all act alike, even if they have different statistics between "variants".

The G43 is unique (I think?) in that it's a COMPLETELY different weapon depending on who's holding it. It's either an on-the-move "cqb" rifle, an inverse-dps long-range rifle with a health-threshold crit, or a perfectly accurate model-deleter. ((Gren/Fusie/Pgren/Stormtrooper/Jaeger command) variant/ JLI variant/sniper variant).

The next closest comparison is with MGs, but even then the only "functional" difference is whether they can be fired on the move or not.

.

g43 and stg I'd say are about equal in different dmg profiles.

For g43 you have the mainline and "special" g43s. As you said you have two completely different damage profiles based on squad, and the game doesnt tell you that.

For STG44 you have close range STGs (Strums), Mid-close range (Pgrens), Mid-Long Range (Obers) and a dmg steroid at all ranges (Volks). Atleast the Obers one is slightly different than the others.

The only other weapon I can think on the allied side that can be confusing is the m1a1 (elite vs RE) for USF or the special Commando Bren for UKF. But I'd argue that one is nowhere even close to as confusing as the Axis ones.

I mean plenty of people on this site have gotten it confused by this (including me) and I'd say the players on the site generally know damage profiles and statistics better than the average player. An average casual player has no chance of knowing that a strum stg is different from a volk stg or a Gren g43 and a JLI g43. Which would explain why a lot of players will always try to get up to point blank with volks/obers when they have stgs. Even if they would be much better of sitting in cover and making the opponent close on them.

g43 and stg I'd say are about equal in different dmg profiles.

For g43 you have the mainline and "special" g43s. As you said you have two completely different damage profiles based on squad, and the game doesnt tell you that.

For STG44 you have close range STGs (Strums), Mid-close range (Pgrens), Mid-Long Range (Obers) and a dmg steroid at all ranges (Volks). Atleast the Obers one is slightly different than the others.

The only other weapon I can think on the allied side that can be confusing is the m1a1 (elite vs RE) for USF or the special Commando Bren for UKF. But I'd argue that one is nowhere even close to as confusing as the Axis ones.

I mean plenty of people on this site have gotten it confused by this (including me) and I'd say the players on the site generally know damage profiles and statistics better than the average player. An average casual player has no chance of knowing that a strum stg is different from a volk stg or a Gren g43 and a JLI g43. Which would explain why a lot of players will always try to get up to point blank with volks/obers when they have stgs. Even if they would be much better of sitting in cover and making the opponent close on them.

And that why i think coh3 should have a codex with (basic) unit stats and clear information regarding abilities. Legion TD 2 has one and its great. You can compare different units and values.

The ingame descriptions needs an update and some more info. Im no expert but it shouldnt be that difficult to let a couple people with knowledge write some helpful piece of text and add it to the game. The veterancy mod already does something similar.