Smartie's commander reworks: USF

I've already done the test, although it's a small sample.

Context:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/106984/winter-balance-update-sov-feedback/page/49#post_id846108




Considering all variables: PF is the best AT infantry squad.

Rangers are the infantry squad with the HIGHEST AT dmg output. But you are already paying for a more expensive squad AND puting 50% more munition into them. If they invest equally in term of munitions, 2 zooks, it's probable inferior unless hitting low armor targets/rear armor.

Thx for your intense testing. :-)

In the end both squads are really powerful in the AT segment (too powerful if you ask me) ;-)

Thx for your intense testing. :-)

In the end both squads are really powerful in the AT segment (too powerful if you ask me) ;-)

I don't think AT squads can ever be too OP. Well, they can but you get my drift.

My argument: At the time where shrecks and triple zooks come online, you have medium tanks and plenty of AI power. Now if you run your shrecks/zooks solo. One, maybe two squads running around, you will be forced to retreat coming about another infantry (unless pio or echelon or sth like that). If you do run into a medium tank, a medium will always have an upper edge. That is, you can bleed the squad with occasional backing away.
The main thing that separates fussies from ranger zooks is the fact they also have snare. A triple zook squad will never down anything above a 222 solo, and if you blob it with rifles, you risk a pretty substantial bleed.

So all in all, unless 5 zooks or 6 PTSRs or 4 shrecks are introduced, infantry carrying AT weapons will always be OK. One thing that would not be ok if they had some sort of fast AI power like the bundled nade. I'm not against the bundled on Pgrens but it does make them super strong with double shrecks.

I don't think AT squads can ever be too OP. Well, they can but you get my drift.

My argument: At the time where shrecks and triple zooks come online, you have medium tanks and plenty of AI power. Now if you run your shrecks/zooks solo. One, maybe two squads running around, you will be forced to retreat coming about another infantry (unless pio or echelon or sth like that). If you do run into a medium tank, a medium will always have an upper edge. That is, you can bleed the squad with occasional backing away.
The main thing that separates fussies from ranger zooks is the fact they also have snare. A triple zook squad will never down anything above a 222 solo, and if you blob it with rifles, you risk a pretty substantial bleed.

So all in all, unless 5 zooks or 6 PTSRs or 4 shrecks are introduced, infantry carrying AT weapons will always be OK. One thing that would not be ok if they had some sort of fast AI power like the bundled nade. I'm not against the bundled on Pgrens but it does make them super strong with double shrecks.

Thanks god Fussies with shrek upgrade loose their snare. I don't mind the matchup of one AT squad versus one medium tank. In most cases the medium tank will bleed the squad. My concerns are:

1) Light AI vehicles/tanks really get obsolete once these are on the field, you can flank an AT-Gun but its impossible to flank infantry AT squads. In case they attack you: One moment of distraction and your light vehicle/tank is gone.
2) Short range AI tanks (Hetzer / KV-2) have a much bigger problem than other mediums tanks inspite of beeing dedicated AI. That is somehow sad.
3) In bigger game modes you see multiple squads at some point, thats really annoying. You can chase them away for a moment if you have rocket artillery but getting wipes on 5man squads is hard to achieve.
4) I personally strongly dislike the concept of chasing tanks with infantry AT weaponary because it is soo much more unrealistic than other aspects of this game that are unrealistic already in this arcade war game. I would really like to give all of them a way shorter reload but a much higher aim time to turn them more into a defensive option.

3) In bigger game modes you see multiple squads at some point, thats really annoying. You can chase them away for a moment if you have rocket artillery but getting wipes on 5man squads is hard to achieve.

Yes, often times you'll see a PzSchreck blob of 2+ double PzSchreck squads but you won't see the same for Bazookas. Considering Allied armour is paper thin compared to Axis tanks this is a big issue, especially with how ridiculous Fusiliers get with G43s.
Also this is rarely talked about because contrary to what is being said on these forums none of these balance patches ever have anything to do with team games. They're mostly for 1v1s.

I don't think AT squads can ever be too OP. Well, they can but you get my drift.

My argument: At the time where shrecks and triple zooks come online, you have medium tanks and plenty of AI power. Now if you run your shrecks/zooks solo. One, maybe two squads running around, you will be forced to retreat coming about another infantry (unless pio or echelon or sth like that). If you do run into a medium tank, a medium will always have an upper edge. That is, you can bleed the squad with occasional backing away.
The main thing that separates fussies from ranger zooks is the fact they also have snare. A triple zook squad will never down anything above a 222 solo, and if you blob it with rifles, you risk a pretty substantial bleed.

So all in all, unless 5 zooks or 6 PTSRs or 4 shrecks are introduced, infantry carrying AT weapons will always be OK. One thing that would not be ok if they had some sort of fast AI power like the bundled nade. I'm not against the bundled on Pgrens but it does make them super strong with double shrecks.

So according to elchino7's test Ranger with 3 bazookas have the "HIGHEST AT dmg output" and are superior to AT PF which is exactly what I posted.

It also seem that the only reason you thought AT PF where superior is that you think they still have snare when they upgrade with AT when they do not. I wonder if you ever even used AT PF to honest.

So according to elchino7's test Ranger with 3 bazookas have the "HIGHEST AT dmg output" and are superior to AT PF which is exactly what I posted.

It also seem that the only reason you thought AT PF where superior is that you think they still have snare when they upgrade with AT when they do not. I wonder if you ever even used AT PF to honest.

Yeah, it's not like armour values matter and Bazookas have to fight against better armoured vehicles compared to PzSchrecks, especially the OKW ones. Surely this makes no difference.

Yeah, it's not like armour values matter and Bazookas have to fight against better armoured vehicles compared to PzSchrecks, especially the OKW ones. Surely this makes no difference.

The test was done against a PV. You can also see the performance of normal zook (red lines). As i said before, Rangers AT with 3 ZOOKs is the highest DPS output you can get out of any infantry AT, including Shrecks and including against targets with armor) but you are paying 50% more in munitions (150 vs 100) on a more expensive unit which means higher cost and reinforce.

Using only 2 super zook has an inferior performance compared to PF even if they pay the same munition and they are more expensive.

Rangers AT with 3 ZOOKs is the highest DPS output

Sure but my point still stands. Allied AT in general fights against better armoured vehicles so it doesn't even equal out. The US player has to spend more manpower and ammo in order to have a competetive AT infantry squad compared to what an Axis player has to do. Not to mention it's easier to make Schreck blobs of any kind in team games than it is with Ranger blobs but that's beside the point in this instance.

So we can all be happy now, because we all are right, isn't that genious...

...Rangers with triple Super Bazooka has highest DPS in general,

...while PFs with double Shrek obliterate enemy medium armor in the same way because of them having lower armor. PFs are overall the best infantry AT unit (taking into account all factors like cost/bleeding/versatility and so on).

Isn't that a great outcome? Reading through various posts it is what we all talked about the whole time. So we can take what we want and be happy with it. I by myself can still say both are too good. Great!

So according to elchino7's test Ranger with 3 bazookas have the "HIGHEST AT dmg output" and are superior to AT PF which is exactly what I posted.

It also seem that the only reason you thought AT PF where superior is that you think they still have snare when they upgrade with AT when they do not. I wonder if you ever even used AT PF to honest.

Not that they keep the snare, but that moving 2 squads of PFs is superior to rifle squad + 3 zooks. I don't use PFs much. Not in AT mode nor g43s. Used them a couple of times playing with OKW, you are right about that, so on average I use them never.

No, I'm not happy. Handheld AT should a deterrent not a dedicated AT source. If I remember this right when CoH2 was first released PzGrens could have 2 PzSchrecks but they were inaccurate at anything but close range so either all rocket launchers should go back to that or reduce available AT slots for infantry by 1.