Suggestion: Hetzer

I know new units are the last thing people wanna see right now, but this seems like something that would fit in with a late 1944-1945 tow/mp setting. Y'know, when the Germans are on the defensive.

I'm thinking this thing would be a straight up ambush tank. If it's out of ambush mode, its gun has the same penetration and range as a panzer 4 or t-34 but with the same anti-infantry capabilities as a stug g. When it's in ambush mode, it gets a huge first strike modifier (something like 2x penetration & 2x damage) and range increase to say that of an su85. After it fires it's first shot you have like a 5-10 second buff that allows you to keep the first strike bonuses, but after it wears off you'll have to get out and reposition.

Ambush mode will work only when there's heavy cover nearby. It will camo the tank and give it the 1st strike bonuses. It makes the unit kind of situational (mostly effective on urban maps). Maybe let the Hull-Down ability camo the tank if there's no heavy cover nearby?

Why always hetzer?
Jagdpanzer IV/70 is a much cooler tank hunter.
It has the Panthers gun.

I agree, 'Guderian's duck' would be better ( 75mm L/70). The Hetzer was a poor man's TD, and mounted the 75mm L/48. We already have the Panzer IV long barrel and the Stug III G in the game.

In between the Jagdpanther (a rare late war armor) and Stug III G/Hetzer is the Jagdpanzer IV.

In any event, the Germans have too many powerful tank destroyers, anyway and they still possess a significant advantage in late game tank battles.

Adding a German version of the SU-85 would cause much anger.....

well i mean that's kinda the point. it's an earlier game version (ie t3) of a td that allows for a different kind of playstyle. some players don't always want to go for the big end game tanks - it's just another option.

why not add a Jagdtiger or the JagdMaus or JPE-100?

why not add a Jagdtiger or the JagdMaus or JPE-100?

why not make your own thread?

but seriously, i don't care what tank it is. i think it'd be cool to have a tank that relies on ambushing other armor.

I'm for the Jagdpanzer IV, since we've hadn't yet seen them in Coh franchise opposing to Hetzer plus I personally like the Jagdpanzer IV a bit more I believe Germans should get some tank destroyers (of course taking balance into account) cause they were used to a large extent in the war, but so far there is only one in game - Elefant (StuG III is an assault gun).

StuG III is an assault gun.

Yes and no...
The Sturmgeschütz (Sd.Kfz. 167) was a German assault gun of the Second World War, which also functioned as a tank destroyer in late-war engagements.

Yes and no...
The Sturmgeschütz (Sd.Kfz. 167) was a German assault gun of the Second World War, which also functioned as a tank destroyer in late-war engagements.

So give that shit thing 60 range. It´s borderline useless because the SU-85 strangely has 10 range more. A Hetzer/ Jagdpanzer IV would be great with 60 range. Otherwise I wouldn´t use it anways.

Yes and no...
The Sturmgeschütz (Sd.Kfz. 167) was a German assault gun of the Second World War, which also functioned as a tank destroyer in late-war engagements.

Yes, functioned. It's role was still infantry support and it belonged to the artillery arm, not the anti-tank. But history aside, it's in-game role is mostly as a tank destroyer. Anyways what I meant with my post was, that I'd like to see some true tank destroyers on the German side

IIRC, the difference between 'Assault Gun' and 'Tank Destroyer' in the German armor was bureaucracy at work rather than real world application. AG was Artillery arm. TD was Army. Both were present at the corps and divisional level.

Outside of the open topped TDs (Nashorn, Marder, etc.) they were used for similar missions.

The STUG IV and Jagpanzer IV. Quite similar use of the same chasis, outside of the fact that the latter had a redesigned superstructure. Both were meant to carry the same L/70, but the artillery arm lost out to the army and stugs had to make do with the L/48

IIRC, the difference between 'Assault Gun' and 'Tank Destroyer' in the German armor was bureaucracy at work rather than real world application. AG was Artillery arm. TD was Army. Both were present at the corps and divisional level.

Outside of the open topped TDs (Nashorn, Marder, etc.) they were used for similar missions.

The STUG IV and Jagpanzer IV. Quite similar use of the same chasis, outside of the fact that the latter had a redesigned superstructure. Both were meant to carry the same L/70, but the artillery arm lost out to the army and stugs had to make do with the L/48

Can't completely agree or disagree with you, there are some differences still:

Assault guns provide direct fire support for infantry, destroying fortifications and bunkers, using high explosive shells. Because they are very close to the enemy, they have closed superstructures. With correct armament they can serve as tank destroyers too, but it wasn't their primary role. In game examples are StuG III E (perfect example of an early assault gun), StuG III F or G (not sure right now, which one it is - upgunned to be able to counter T-34s and also capable against infantry) and Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär wreaking havoc on infantry with its 150mm low velocity gun.

The tank destroyers on the other hand, were meant to engage armor at long distances using high velocity anti-tank rounds, so the early types were using open top superstructures believing it would provide adequate protection, because of the longer distances from the enemy (this and because some of the antitank guns just wouldn't fit into an enclosed superstructure). These were later changed to closed top, because of the dangers of flanking infantry, shrapnel and grenades. They were used mainly with Panzer and Panzergrenadier divisions, due to their higher mobility. Infantry could do with standard towed anti-tank guns. In game we so far only have the Elefant as a true tank destroyer, being superb against tanks and crap against infantry (due to previously explained different types of guns).

One last thing: an assault gun with proper armament can successfully function as a tank destroyer, while a tank destroyer cannot function as an assault gun (especially the open topped ones).

There's theory and reality..with the Germans getting their faces beaten in on every front, the Army reserve TD and AG battalions were usually used for the same thing: 'fire brigade'. This often meant hunting down attacking enemy tank forces as priority #1, and priority #2 was to support infantry.

In reality, the Germans were fighting a poor man's war, losing most of the time, and were constantly short of combat power. Their units tended to be far more impressive on paper than in reality, with just around 50% TOE or worse typically.

The initial separation between the AG and TD units eventually morphed into a convergence of sorts, as the stugs eventually refitted from low velocity, high HE guns into high velocity 75mm L/48, lower HE guns as the Germans had an acute shortage of mobile antitank weapons.

With the German war economy completely off its rails and screwed in 1944, you start seeing Jagdpanzers and stugs being used as tanks (Ardennes offensive) due to lack of operational tanks.

The open topped Marders/Nashorns, due to their fragility, were kept out of this employment and used as long range snipers. They were eventually replaced by Jagdpanzers.

My post was about reality also. In early, mid-war this was reality. In late war yes, you're right. Currently the game units mostly represent 1943/44 (German wise all vehicles and equipment except Ostwind were already around in 1943).

The tide of war on Eastern front turned against them for good in autumn of 1943, the summer offensives still had some success, up to Kursk.

Yes exactly in Ardennes as you've mentioned, where tank destroyers were used instead of tanks and in function of assault guns, they performed poorly outside their designated anti-tank roles. I just want to point out that TDs were useful mostly in anti-tank roles, while the use of assault guns was more diverse But yeah, as you've said it, nearing the end of war the line between AG and TD got blurred..