[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

So you do not want to say your opinion on weather Peanl are a cost efficient unit or not. Fine by me.

That's not what happened:

Because in order to make t1 worth it you need to build more than 1 fucking penal squad. If you're giving up AT guns, MGs and mortars, then you're gonna need to justify that. Otherwise you would just get cons and get t2 when it suits you

stop being a troll

That's not what happened:

stop being a troll

So the answer to question if iyo Penal are a cost efficient unit is:
They are cost efficient independently but one of them can not cover the additional cost of T1 building and thus one has to produce more than one.

Correct?

That is simply an unfounded theory.

Ok, lets put that into practice then:

Volks - have upgrade - viable mid and late game, fall off because of intended design of transitioning into being supported by obers.
Grens - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Rifles - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Tommies - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
PFs - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Fucking osttruppen - were not viable - got upgrade - became viable late game.
Conscripts - had no upgrade, were not viable, got upgrade, became viable.
Penals - have no upgrade, are not viable late and mid game.

There, the theory is based on hard fact that supports it with undeniable proof.
Also, reminder: we're talking about firepower in squad vs squad combat, before you try to play vehicle card, which only makes it much worse for penals.

Vet 3 Penal will beat vet 3 LMG grenadiers in cover to fights at many ranges and Vet 5 Vg both of which have weapon upgrades.

They will.
So will rifles.
Rifles still have upgrades, access to strong light tank, access to strong med tank, ability to upgrade to AT and have AT snare too and are not broken in any way.

There is no real relevance between having a weapon upgrade or not.

We've just established that there is, you can't stick your head deep in your ass and pretend you don't see it.

Performance is related to stats and weapons available to squad regardless of how one come to have these weapons available to them.(concentrate DPS over spread DPS)

As evidenced by conscripts over the years, no amount of veterancy buffing or adjusting replaces actual upgrade and until upgrade is added, unit will never be viable late game onless one of the two are true:
Veterancy is batshit insane high and obviously out of the line.
Base stats are batshit insane high and obviously out of the line for the cost.

Neither of which is true for penals.

So the answer to question if iyo Penal are a cost efficient unit is:
They are cost efficient independently but one of them can not cover the additional cost of T1 building and thus one has to produce more than one.

Correct?

No. What you just said contradicts itself

You need to build multiple in order to be cost effective, and to justify not going cons into t2

Ok, lets put that into practice then:

Volks - have upgrade - viable mid and late game, fall off because of intended design of transitioning into being supported by obers.
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Veterancy is batshit insane high and obviously out of the line.
Base stats are batshit insane high and obviously out of the line for the cost.

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And you just shot down you own theory down, Vg have a weapon upgrade but they are viable in late game according to you.

And also provided circumstance that make your theory does not apply.

And a desing that has Penal being as useful the end of the game with as they are before minute 1 is simply bad. It the recipe for Penal blobs and I doubt anyone wants that.

Happy holidays.

No. What you just said contradicts itself

You need to build multiple in order to be cost effective, and to justify not going cons into t2

Actually you are the one contradicting yourself.
If unit is not cost effective individually building more of them makes thing worse not better.

Actually you are conducting yourself.
If unit is not cost effective building more of them is recipe for disaster.

I am not, you just chopped the context off of my statement just so you could argue it some more

I am not, you just chopped the context off of my statement just so you could argue it some more

I have not chopped anything out of context. I have asked questions and you simply refuse to answer.

Bottom line is that in your opinion Penal are cost efficient when build in numbers, correct?

I have not chopped anything out of context. I have asked questions and you simply refuse to answer.

I already answered your question. You are either trolling or incapable of understanding

You've taken the entire fucking game out of context throughout this whole conversation

Bottom line is that in your opinion Penal are cost efficient when build in numbers, correct?

Cost effective at getting kills early and mid game? Sure. Are they cost effective long term, and at holding territory and winning matches? No, conscripts and tier 2 is much better

What is your point? Why do you need to strip my opinion of context over and over again?

And you just shot down you own theory down, Vg have a weapon upgrade but they are viable in late game according to you.

And also provided circumstance that make your theory does not apply.

And a desing that has Penal being as useful the end of the game with as they are before minute 1 is simply bad. It the recipe for Penal blobs and I doubt anyone wants that.

Happy holidays.

Ah, there we have it.
Can't prove wrong someone who refuses to acknowledge being wrong.

I see you're not interested in anything else but patting your own back and being in firm denial of facts as usual, so play that game with yourself alone.

Ok, lets put that into practice then:

Volks - have upgrade - viable mid and late game, fall off because of intended design of transitioning into being supported by obers.
Grens - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Rifles - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Tommies - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
PFs - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Fucking osttruppen - were not viable - got upgrade - became viable late game.
Conscripts - had no upgrade, were not viable, got upgrade, became viable.
Penals - have no upgrade, are not viable late and mid game.

There, the theory is based on hard fact that supports it with undeniable proof.
Also, reminder: we're talking about firepower in squad vs squad combat, before you try to play vehicle card, which only makes it much worse for penals.


Neither of which is true for penals.

? Base Grens and Volks are viable lategame, but Penals not? Thats an opinion and rather controversial. Penals were fine in the Okw-Sov matchup before 7man Cons got introduced. Its just that Osttruppen and 5man Grens are too good and 7man Cons perform very well. Penals are combatwise very similar to upgraded Pfusies and nobody says that this unit underperforms. Penals have surperior veterancy boni compared to almost every other squad. And with the upcoming changes they will be even better. They dont need an offensive weapon upgrade.

I think the M3 needs a little bit more armor. It dies too fast vs small arms in the mod. And the t34 timing is rather bad compared to the ost p4 (and okw p4 when bg into schwerer rush). There could be a subtech for katy, su86 and every doc tank, while t34 and Mobilize Reserves get unlocked with the cheaper t4 (something like 60/30 fuel instead of 90)

? Base Grens and Volks are viable lategame, but Penals not? Thats an opinion and rather controversial. Penals were fine in the Okw-Sov matchup before 7man Cons got introduced. Its just that Osttruppen and 5man Grens are too good and 7man Cons perform very well. Penals are combatwise very similar to upgraded Pfusies and nobody says that this unit underperforms. Penals have surperior veterancy boni compared to almost every other squad. And with the upcoming changes they will be even better. They dont need an offensive weapon upgrade.

I think the M3 needs a little bit more armor. It dies too fast vs small arms in the mod. And the t34 timing is rather bad compared to the ost p4 (and okw p4 when bg into schwerer rush). There could be a subtech for katy, su86 and every doc tank, while t34 and Mobilize Reserves get unlocked with the cheaper t4 (something like 60/30 fuel instead of 90)

You've skipped the reminder. Gren late game problems stem from AoE, not small arms.
Also, upgraded PFs are jampacked with utility and allied weapons are balanced to fight vs 4-5 man squads, not 6 man ones.

You've skipped the reminder. Gren late game problems stem from AoE, not small arms.
Also, upgraded PFs are jampacked with utility and allied weapons are balanced to fight vs 4-5 man squads, not 6 man ones.

Your clearly stated that penals are not viable cause they have no weapon upgrade. That point was just about raw combat power and not utility and therefore just plain wrong. And Pfusies have other weak points that penals dont have. And about anti-tank power. What exactly is that? The faust/snare? Are Sections unviable too cause they have zero at? Or do you build piat Section? You even have the option to go for the ptrs upgrade. It may not have the alpha dmg of Shrecks and elite Zooks, but atleast it doesnt render the dmg against infantry to worthless levels.

? Base Grens and Volks are viable lategame, but Penals not? Thats an opinion and rather controversial. Penals were fine in the Okw-Sov matchup before 7man Cons got introduced. Its just that Osttruppen and 5man Grens are too good and 7man Cons perform very well. Penals are combatwise very similar to upgraded Pfusies and nobody says that this unit underperforms. Penals have surperior veterancy boni compared to almost every other squad. And with the upcoming changes they will be even better. They dont need an offensive weapon upgrade.

yeah ignoring VSL ostruppen 3 min pgrens and pfussies all of which the old penals never had to compete against...


also thats ignoring how the old OKW-SOV matchup played... it was never penals alone that carried the OKW-SOV matchup... instead it was the M3 which basically annihilated OKW for the first 5 minutes that carried the matchup... imagine SOV getting the T-70 before the luchs... it was that insane... pair it with the old DSHK lend lease to callin M4C meta and OKW never stood a chance... for ostheer cons ppsh/T2 was the preferred meta... though lend lease DSHK to M4C was still stupid strong

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it was never penals alone that carried the OKW-SOV matchup... iShow Spoiler

Have you ever seen a Penal flamer ourah blob?