[Winter Balance Update] USF Feedback

I did not see a G43 change on pfusies or in general in the notes. Couldn't find on 2nd look either. Is this a planned change that did not make it to the notes? I fully support this though. G43s needed this badly.

Might have misrembered from Sander's wishlist. Would be a good change in the future though.

Sorry I can't tell if this is sarcastic but I'm assuming you do want good feedback here since you're on the team. I assume you mean decrew at 1 man? Because it already decrews at 2 because it requires 3 men. As far as I know it's impossible to make it functional at 2 man. I don't think the problem is actually the pack howie not surviving rocket arty, because team weapons should be countered by it, it's more the stuka just coming in too quickly and to pinpoint that you get hit by the rocket 4/5 times. 6 man allowed the pack howie to actually take a direct rocket on the weapon and still have 3 left over if spacing was good. pack up time would actually be a really good way to buff it for dodging rocket arty I think. But again I don't really know what should be done about it. You simply cannot be around under its fire with any damaged squad or you get blown to bits. And although it's confirmation bias but when you try and dodge things with RNG scatter you just get blown up the second you leave green cover. That's part of the reason why I think the ISG is pretty meh. It's got great scatter and and mediocre AoE which means if you do move your squad you can actually dodge it and not get blown up by RNG. Like obviously it would be redundant to make it just a better mortar but another idea is to give it more utility somehow. Maybe nondoc flare? HEAT rounds could definitely be better in terms of scatter. Barrage only weapon as many have suggested would be great since it requires micro input.

Thanks, some good ideas in here.

Captain does lack sight options outside of Take Aim on AT gun, so I don't dislike the idea of a flare, if the sight doesn't make the scatter go bonkers.

I disagree on removing smoke not doing much, it's part of the reason why panzer tac is OP. It requires zero thought process from the user and breaks LoS immediately and requires the attacker to RNG their shot into the smoke, and that's ontop of the extra time to make the commands and not go into the next reload cycle. It also gives more time to get to friendly AT guns or snares. The scott just usually requires some form of dive from your opponent inorder to kill. You'll still see 2x pak walls from players going into scotts, but they'll still back up 10 (or 5 from raks) and just go into the corner, pop out and self heal cause crews. And if the player gets really nervous or wants extra security they'll dump smoke ontop of it. The barrage is 80 range, but IIRC the CDs for them are atrocious, that probably needs to be addressed or it'll get degraded to a heavy fuel mortar, which obviously won't be used. Don't take my word as bible though since I couldn't tell you the scott barrage CD, but I just remember it maybe a year or 2 ago being terribly long. I think a speed reduction would be a subtle way of nerfing it if we really didn't want to go down the durability nerf route.

Yes, Scott barrage has very long cooldown right now at vet 0. There's a bulletin which reduces it by 25% that makes it acceptable, but would be better if that wouldn't be required.

Removing skillsmoke would still keep diving as the only real option to take on an autofiring Scott and that means you'd have to face single or double Jackson. Addressing range instead would also allow an AT gun to reliably keep it at bay, so the Scott has to use smoke and HE barrage to deal with it.

Of course, it has to be seen if an autofiring Scott is too vulnerable now and if the barrage changes are good enough to make up for the autofire nerfs.

Personally "soft nerfs" to me is just a bandage on a serious wound. I'm not saying it's your fault, but to me, saying "well the fuel cost went up by 5 clearly makes it balanced" is just majorly avoiding the problem. The jackson received an armor nerf because there is zero justification for the jackson to be bouncing P4 shots when it has 20 range on it. We wouldn't raise the pack howie price by 10 manpower and say it's balanced right now, same thing here. As far the panther goes in countering it, I think the panther may finally be in a good spot™. I'm honestly a little nervous about how good the panther may potentially be with these buffs, but we'll see.

Well, I personally think the Jackson isn't that big of an issue, it's the very strong indirect fire it's backing up, 2 of which are getting addressed in terms of raw firepower. Calliope probably in the future.

Popcap abuse is also really strong with Jacksons, which could also be looked at.

Quick question: does the Scott benefit from the smoke changes as well? If not it should.


Might as well be the time:

-Swap Scott with Pak Howie and rework Howie into barrage weapon only? This will give that "indirect late game" firepower to USF?

+++

If the M8 Scott Changes go through then they might as well delete the unit from the game because there is literally no reason to use it with these new changes. Its a waste of fuel which would be better off going to a Sherman or Jackson.

Keep in mind that this unit is a T4 unit. With 50 range its basically a garbage brumbar with no health/damage. With the barrage being nerfed what exactly is the role of this unit?

Since the M8 Scott is based on the Stuart Chassis, ideally it should be swapped with the Pak Howitzer and be adjusted to function like a Mortar Half Track. Then the Pak Howitzer could be a barrage only artillery piece.

Making pak howi a barrage only piece would make it not fit inside any build. USF is already pop dependent with the usual 3 rifles into officer. God forbid you have doctrinal rangers which would be a shame to go unused. Why would anyone then make pak howi? To be a mediocre range heavy mortar whose function is to only barrage forward bunkers and heavy paks? Right now the scott is the pak howi on wheels for games where pak howi is too slow and too micro dependent (eg. constant fear of stuka). With these changes, scott is dead and pak howi resources are better spent on an extra ATG or some doctrinal unit like mortar HT. In the end, both pak howi and scott are terrible vs agile, aggressive players. Scott even more so.
People actually compared scott to brummbar. I think that's enough said about the state of general mindlessness on these forums, and the balance team took the bait

With the barrage being nerfed what exactly is the role of this unit?

The barrage is receiving a big net buff to its AOE and accuracy (scatter). This should make it a lot more effective against support weapons or other static defences from long range. The goal of these changes is to move the unit's performance from autofire more towards player input without decreasing the overall power level.

The barrage is receiving a big net buff to its AOE and accuracy (scatter). This should make it a lot more effective against support weapons or other static defences from long range. The goal of these changes is to move the unit's performance from autofire more towards player input without decreasing the overall power level.

I played 3 games of preview with the scotts so far.
If there was a buff to the barrage, it was so inconsequential that I didn't really notice. I'm sure it's better than it was, but better than trash is just a polished turd. It'll be a dead unit in this configuration.

I think if it were left as it is in live and the skillsmoke was removed and the acceleration nerfed it would be fine.

I played 3 games of preview with the scotts so far.
If there was a buff to the barrage, it was so inconsequential that I didn't really notice. I'm sure it's better than it was, but better than trash is just a polished turd. It'll be a dead unit in this configuration.

Then help us finetune the changes and suggest what else the barrage needs based on your testing experience.

Then help us finetune the changes and suggest what the barrage needs based on your testing experience.

reduce the scatter
the barrage has a long cooldown anyway, so you might as well make it accurate.

I guess I don't understand what you guys have envisioned for the scott's role to be.
In my mind it's mobile blob control and light arty support, but most of its damage comes from autofire. The only time I use the barrage in live is to harass team weapons or to drop smoke.

I guess I don't understand what you guys have envisioned for the scott's role to be.
In my mind it's mobile blob control and light arty support, but most of its damage comes from autofire. The only time I use the barrage in live is to harass team weapons or to drop smoke.

It does a lot more than blob control. Currently (in live) it can afk snipe models at 60 range from behind the safety of ATGs and Jacksons, barely requiring any player input, causing very high manpower damage and wipes to singular infantry squads. This is hideous to play against. This is being addressed by pushing the power of the unit more towards the barrage.

reduce the scatter
the barrage has a long cooldown anyway, so you might as well make it accurate.

I'm thinking about reducing scatter by another 1-2 range and giving the barrage an extra shell. That should be enough to reliably force away or even kill team weapons or stationary infantry squads with a single barrage.

I guess I don't understand what you guys have envisioned for the scott's role to be.
In my mind it's mobile blob control and light arty support, but most of its damage comes from autofire.

- Keep it as Sniper arty on autofire to bleed opponent with model snipes, but less effective / more vulnerable than now.
- Make it more reliable as anti support weapon tool if using barrage.

In live its very good at the first role, especially once it gets the vet 2 scatter buff, but it falls flat as barraging weapon. Its accuracy isn't good at long range and the AoE is so concentrated at near range, you do no damage with close misses, not that great to force away an MG or AT gun.

I'm thinking about reducing scatter by another 1-2 range and giving the barrage an extra shell. That should be enough to reliably force away or even kill team weapons or stationary infantry squads with a single barrage.

Yeah if it's gonna be a primarily barrage-based platform then I think this is definitely a step in the right direction.



But we all know what the Scott REALLY needs:
Show Spoiler

- Keep it as Sniper arty on autofire to bleed opponent with model snipes, but less effective / more vulnerable than now.
- Make it more reliable as anti support weapon tool if using barrage.

In live its very good at the first role, especially once it gets the vet 2 scatter buff, but it falls flat as barraging weapon. Its accuracy isn't good at long range and the AoE is so concentrated at near range, you do no damage with close misses, not that great to force away an MG or AT gun.

Yeah, the live barrage is pretty weak, but I don't find the current iteration of preview barrage to be that good either. In one of my test games I think it took 3 scotts barraging a mortar simultaneously to kill it.

Why not keep the Scott as it is but:

A) Remove defensive smoke

OR

B) Reduce HP

IMO the Scott is just way too durable at the moment, it has 400 HP + emergency smoke + decent enough armour to make it bounce Luchs/222 and Ostwind to some degree.

Calliope needs to be nerfed.

First of all, reduce armour so P4s have 100% chance to pen.

Second, make the rockets arrive a little slower as you often get wiped even though you retreat as soon as you hear the rockets. The delay is just too short considering how powerful and numerous the rockets are.

I also played one game with it. The 50 autofire is really felt, especially on such a buggy unit. It took 2 barrages (1+1, 2 scotts) to kill an MG42. Doesn't feel any different than the current version.

Buff barrage, 60 range autofire but nerf accuracy (scatter and all). 320 HP and perhaps lower fuel cost. Return to 100 dmg would be preferable on barrage. Don't know exactly what would change.
Pak howi: Only change I would make on this unit, compared to now is nerf autofire accuracy (scatter, etc...) and buff barrage cooldown (no barrage accuracy buff needed). That's it. Not all those nerfs you and quasi buffs you introduced. Why would I go for pak howi when I can go for 2x mortar that can retreat and does not bleed as much. For advancing I would either go for calliope or just smoke from mortars and advance like that, rather than spend resources on a pak howi that would just do nothing except barrage every minute or so on positions than can always shift and void the barraage.

Also, the person above has a point. Reduce armour on calliope so that the P4 can penetrate at all ranges and add 0.5-1s delay as to when the rockets start falling. You could then reverse the cooldown nerf since the calliope is RNG as it is due to it's low accuracy..

First off, m8 Scott got too many nerfs. Now hitting an infantry with a direct hit does not kill the infantry. (Damage has been reduced from 100 to 80, and damage correction has been changed to 75% when hitting directly, so only 60 HP is lost even when hit directly.)
I agree that the m8 Scott is an annoying unit. However, if this unit loses range and firepower, it completely loses its existence value. Taking into account all points such as range, shot rate, and functionality, this unit is now worse than Mortar half-track.

All American artillery units were nerfed. Even Calliope. This 'castration' of the USF's artillery units causes the USF to lose its fundamental. All USF units are designed to be offensive rather than defensive. But without enough artillery ability, it's just like throwing an egg into a rock.

Let's think about one thing. You have to hit the frontlines, which is composed of very powerful Ostheer support weapons. In the case of the Soviet Union has Katyusha independent of the doctrine, and the UKF has a large number of instant smoke bombs and land mattresses that are generated even though it is defensively designed, and the basic infantry's sight extension for flank frontlines (Recon Tommy) regardless of the doctrine.

However, the USF relies heavily on artillery firepower. I wonder what the characteristics of this faction remain if the USF, with no flamethrowers and no mines, loses even artillery firepower.

First off, m8 Scott got too many nerfs. Now hitting an infantry with a direct hit does not kill the infantry. (Damage has been reduced from 100 to 80, and damage correction has been changed to 75% when hitting directly, so only 60 HP is lost even when hit directly.)

It's near radius, not near damage for autofire.

Damage reduction and AoE change is for the barrage.

It's near radius, not near damage for autofire.

Damage reduction and AoE change is for the barrage.

- Barrage HE AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
- Barrage HE AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4

Auto fire only nerfed AoE, but not barrage.

- Barrage HE AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
- Barrage HE AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4

Auto fire only nerfed the range, but not barrage.

Barrage goes from:
100 damage at radius 0
100 damage at radius 1
25 damage at radius 2
10 damage at radius 3
0 damage at radius 4

To:
80 damage at radius 0
54.4 damage at radius 1 (linearly calculated)
32 damage at radius 2
24 damage at radius 3 (linearly calculated)
16 damage at radius 4

So you lose damage between radius 0 and 1, but do more between 2 and 4. Together with the better stock scatter and vet 2 scatter bonus being moved to barrage, it should make it more reliable, but it's possible the barrage needs some more changes still. Maybe some extra shells or slightly higher midrange damage or further improving scatter or lower veterancy requirements (to help reach the vet 2 bonus).

Again, the goal is not to nerf barrage, but to make it a reliable tool against support weapons and squads, not like the barrage in live that misses 3/4 times and hits 1/4 times (but kills a model).

Barrage goes from:
100 damage at radius 0
100 damage at radius 1
25 damage at radius 2
10 damage at radius 3
0 damage at radius 4

To:
80 damage at radius 0
54.4 damage at radius 1 (linearly calculated)
32 damage at radius 2
24 damage at radius 3 (linearly calculated)
16 damage at radius 4

So you lose damage between radius 0 and 1, but do more between 2 and 4. Together with the better stock scatter and vet 2 scatter bonus being moved to barrage, it should make it more reliable, but it's possible the barrage needs some more changes still. Maybe some extra shells or slightly higher midrange damage or further improving scatter or lower veterancy requirements (to help reach the vet 2 bonus).

Again, the goal is not to nerf barrage, but to make it a reliable tool against support weapons and squads, not like the barrage in live that misses 3/4 times and hits 1/4 times (but kills a model).

Thank you very much for this. I miscalculated. Played another game right now and however logical your post is, regarding the scalability, the scott, barrage and autofire feel more lackluster. The biggest nerf felt is the 50 range.

Scenario: I had a big blob coming at me and had 2 scotts at the ready on hill 400. I used both of them to start firing on the incoming blob but the pak completely forced them off. I smoked it off but still. As the infantry wave advances, you need to keep a serious eye on them to not get snared. Basically, you need to get up close and personal and at the same time avoid any sort of sanres, shrecks and raketen/paks. It's pretty near impossible to force a blob off. Of course, you can't barrage an incoming blob so I only used barrage on MGs and paks. Again, if the enemy is paying attention, the long travel time + general low damage of the shells and both paks and MGs managed to get out with 3 models. If they didn't react at all, MG was brough down to 1-2 models very low HP and pak was decrewed. That is 2 scotts firing. Not one. Two scotts at all time firing at either incoming blobs or weapon teams. And of course, without the barrage, scott is near useless in teamgames.
How the patch translates to 1v1s where there are 2/3 less units on the field. I don't know. All I know is that scott was and still is a lackluster teamgame unit. Pak howi is viable until the stuka comes at which point any pak play is a serious bleed. I've played so many games that the moment I hear werfer or stuka I immediately press 6 (control group for double or single pak howi) and send them to the base and still I lost both of them in 70% of cases. LeFH deletes them in 1-3 shots from counter barrage.
All in all, as much as things make sense, this patch ain't intended for team games, AT ALL.