Future Balance Items by Relic

Its the T70s effective range on Shreks in addition to deliberate yoyoing and LoS resetting of the long Shrek fire time that is completely fking Shrek effectiveness, at its high Muni cost on a high bleed unit, vs a unit it is supposed to be a counter for that is a real problem. A properly microed T70 will never get hit by a Shrek. With its acceleration and range, it can reset Shrek ad infinitum.

why don't you try to "well micro" a t70 and "easy yoyoing" it and show us your results?

T70 is a T3 soviet unit.
ANY T3 german unit rapes the T70.
Whinning that your infantry can't do shit against a T70 is like me whinning that my conscripts can't destroy Ostwinds barehanded.

T70 is a good anti-infantry unit that fills the same role than Ostwind, but cheaper. And because it is cheaper it has a lot less hitpoints, less armor and less damage output.

Yes, it's so cheap that it can be spammed. In that case just support your troops with a StuG or PzIV. If you still doesn't have one, just retreat, the same way russians retreat when they see a FlameHT and they still doesn't have counter.

What is stupid is try to nerf a weak dedicated anti-infantry tank just because you can't kill it with infantry!

Try mines or Truesight ambushes.

The issue here is Soviet Industry Commander that enables the T70 spam way before any german can prepare any counter.

exactly, t70 is a high risk/reward unit and has a tiny window, nerfing it is just stupid. you take a risk by going T3 and you take another risk going t70 instead of waiting for t34, and even if you manage to get the P4-free window you still need to micro perfectly to avoid paks/fausts

@Greeb: T70 has just about the same AI output as Ostwind. The primary difference is in the amor and hp, as you do point out (which is accounted for just fine in douboe the MP and Fuel cost). But in terms of DPS output, the T70 snipes the smaller Ost units proportionately at around the same rate as Ostwind does.

I know you are an enormous T70 fanboi. Ive watched you try to resist T70 change in multiple threads, sometimes by trying to derail the discussion into Industry critique, sometimes into FHT, and sometimes as here, into even expensive PGren + extremely expensive Shrek arguments.

Im sorry dude, but people have been aware of T70s over performance even before you arrived here on Coh2.org.

The T70 needs adjustment, from a baseline perspective.
The proposed Scatter change is indicative that Relic shares this view.

I further propose a range reduction because you shouldnt be able to yoyo in and the fuck out, or LoS a 360MP 120 Muni unit, while bleeding it 1-2 models per shot, that is in asymmetric design intended EXACTLY to counter the Sov priviledge of a light tank, which Ost DOES NOT HAVE.

Sorry dude, but thats just bogus. The T70 owns the fuck out of PGren Shreks, when that is supposed to be a real counter, especially at its cost and loss to AI.

The range is TOO FAR.

@Tuvok: And omg, how hard Im lolling ar Tuvok, who I just corrected for claiming T70 and Shrek range is the same, whereas its not, backed by stats, still forcing his priviledge.

He didnt even acknowledge he was wrong, though I linked the stats. Just co mpletely ignored it as if it jever happened.
What can you say to behavior like that? Ive been wrong statwise numerous times, and when someone takes the time and effort to correct me, I take the time and effort to thank them and aknowledge I was wrong. But not this guy!

There is no reasoning with these people. They are so stuck on the "us" vs "them" biased perception, they no l8nger care for the improvement of the game unilaterally, even when shown stats.

Trying to claim Fausts, at half the range, are a threat to the mobile T70 that can snipe 1-2 models feom outside range?
This is going full potato now. Typical Sov fanboi trash, with no interest in universal balance, at all.

t70 has already been nerfed twice: directly, removing crush, and indirectly by increasing its size and has never been regarded as a balance breaking unit prior to soviet industry.
Whole T3 was actually considered non viable until T34 was buffed and Ivan popularized T70 strats (which still needs great micro and early fuel advantage)

There is no reasoning with these people. They are so stuck on the "us" vs "them" biased perception, they no l8nger care for the improvement of the game unilaterally, even when shown stats.

Trying to claim Fausts, at half the range, are a threat to the mobile T70 that can snipe 1-2 models feom outside range?
This is going full potato now. Typical Sov fanboi trash, with no interest in universal balance, at all.

lol, calling everyone fanboy when you are the only one here, is just so hilarious..
I'm not a sov fanboy I just wanna defend the poor thing from the wrath of Ost fanboys that want it nerfed

t70 has already been nerfed twice: directly, removing crush, and indirectly by increasing its size and has never been regarded as a balance breaking unit prior to soviet industry.
Whole T3 was actually considered non viable until T34 was buffed and Ivan popularized T70 strats (which still needs great micro and early fuel advantage)

Bullshit.

T70 has been focused as overperforming for months, especially and specificaly because of players like Ivan who play in the edge of the meta.

Hell even Ivan agrees on T70 over performance. He was exploiting the shit out of it before patch as the famous "undefeatable" strat, and now is doing so with Industry post-patch.

Why? TO SHOW YOU TARDS THAT IT NEEDS ADJUSTING.

The irony, omg, the irony, when Sov fanbois misunderstand that to mean that "since Ivan is playing and winning massive streaks with T70 spam, it must be ok", when his streak and foxus on this unit is intended to prove the EXACT OPPOSITE.

The scatter change is universally good. For the entire game.
But the T70 is STILL over performing.

After that, all it needs is a small Range nerf.
It can still yoyo behind cover and LoS. Its still optimal in cramped quarters.
But the nstive range is TOO DAMN HIGH against its native counters.

lol, calling everyone fanboy when you are the only one here, is just so hilarious..
I'm not a sov fanboy I just wanna defend the poor thing from the wrath of Ost fanboys that want it nerfed

Hey guy.

You forget about this?

t70 doesn't outrange shreks

Wrong!

Shrek: 35
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/ballistic_weapons/panzerschreck_atw_mp

T70 maingun: 40
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/ballistic_weapons/t70_m1938_45mm_mp

Meaning the T70 can yoyo in and out, OUTSIDE of Shrek range, getting potentially 1-2 model kills while doing so, while reloading on the move, while the Shreks fire cycle gets reset everytime the T70 moves out of range.

Hows your biased defending going when you are flat out wrong?

GJ! Lets post bullshit to protect our priviledge against teh fanbois?
In my book, that kind of dishonesty makes you a flat out fanboi, protecting your priviledge at all cost, because in your mind this is "us" vs " them" rather than all of us working towards a better balance and a better game for EVERYONE.

Hell even Ivan agrees on T70 over performance. He was exploiting the shit out of it before patch as the famous "undefeatable" strat, and now is doing so with Industry post-patch.

"unbeatable" strategy is just a title, you can also read the description that says: "I hope this helps solve your Ostheer OP problems", but I guess you skipped that since Ost have never been op to you.
And it's a whole strategy that revolves around the fuel denial to the enemy and depends solely on that, it's not a t70 "exploitment" per se.

you can also write a strategy involving fuel denial to soviets and p4 spamming and call it a p4 unbeatable strat

Hows your biased defending going when you are flat out wrong?

I have first hand experience of using t70 vs shrecks and the opposite as well. you don't. my experience always made me act as if they had the same range (hence the yoyoing) and you telling me the actual ranges won't make me change how to face the actual practical implications of it

I know you are an enormous T70 fanboi. Ive watched you try to resist T70 change in multiple threads, sometimes by trying to derail the discussion into Industry critique, sometimes into FHT, and sometimes as here, into even expensive PGren + extremely expensive Shrek arguments.

Well, I've read everything now. Unit fanboys
(Fucking panzerwerfer fanboys, I hate you!!)

I defend T70 because I don't think it should be nerfed, just that.
And I derail the discussion into Soviet Industry because that is the source of the imbalance imo.

BTW, I don't even use T70. I prefer going to T34 first.

T70 is a very risky strat. It requires to overplay your enemy to have a big fuel advantage to make bigger the window where your T70s can go without encounter a german T3 unit.

Even so, it requires a lot of micro to avoid fausts and shrecks. Is not an easy strat that will give you the victory every time.

Im sorry dude, but people have been aware of T70s over performance even before you arrived here on Coh2.org.

I'm lurking this forum since long and I didn't see barely any complain till the last DLC commanders release.

that is in asymmetric design intended EXACTLY to counter the Sov priviledge of a light tank, which Ost DOES NOT HAVE.

FlameHT fills exactly the same role. It is a halftrack but I doubt you will ever see a FlameHT destroyed by small arms fire.
And it appears way before than T70.

Sorry dude, but thats just bogus. The T70 owns the fuck out of PGren Shreks, when that is supposed to be a real counter, especially at its cost and loss to AI.

PGren are a 100% AI unit that with the shrek upgrade sacrifices some AI power for some AT capability.
PGrens+shrecks are not a hard counter to anything and you are truly mistaken if you think otherwise.

T70 is a pure AI unit, so it's understandable it kills Pgrens, even with shreks. Use True Sight ambushes, it's not so hard to lay a faust to a T70, even one well microed.

This is going full potato now. Typical Sov fanboi trash, with no interest in universal balance, at all.

It's ridiculous being called fanboy by a dude that has not played a single game as soviet.
Fortunately no one gives credit to your ideas about balance.

Probably any word about balance from a compstomper has more credibility than yours, judging from your soviet experience.

These are how you deal with the FHT.

Sorry that there is no button you can press to instakill it.
It has to be killed by use of ingame means, same as any other unit in the game.
None of your rebuttals refute that it is killable by those means, in the criteria I numbered.

A) Every bit helps. Takes dmg just fine from small arms, which T70 doesnt.
B) 2 ATNades and a few seconds of incidental small arms which happens whike the ATNade is being thrown anyways.
Pretty good pay off compared to the cost of the FHT. Sov can do thqt, and its the Ost fault for overextending then.
C) Killing a unit is not the only prerequisite for countering a unit. This is certainly true also in how hard it is to kill off a Sov weapon team for Ost. Forcing it off is enough. Guard are present on almost half of Sov Commanders, are immediate as a callin, and outrange the FHT completely. They are by definition, a light vehicle infantry counter.
D) So? 2 ATNades leave a FHT at about 10% health, no matter if Ive played as Sov 1 time or 1 million times.
E) Yes, this one is marginal, but it exists and can be implemented.
F) Mines are not LUCK dependant! HAHA how can you even claim that.
Mines are:
1) Positioning dependant
2) Actively luring Vehicles into them dependant.
There is plenty of luck and RNG in the game, that depend on luck, but for real, Mines are not one of them.
G) No, we are not talking infantry in a vacuum. For a complete perspective we have to consider as many options as possible. Thats why I included the M3, ironic therefore that you try to narrow it to infantry only in a vacuum. See what I mean? Thats dishonest and biased, dude.

Your theory crafting abilities are amazing but if you only played as Soviets only once then you will learn that you don't go for FHT with infantry unless you absolutely must.
Mines are luck dependant cos you need a bit of luck for an enemy to drive into one. Even when you placed them in a top notch spot.

Your theory crafting abilities are amazing but if you only played as Soviets only once then you will learn that you don't go for FHT with infantry unless you absolutely must.
Mines are luck dependant cos you need a bit of luck for an enemy to drive into one. Even when you placed them in a top notch spot.

Then dont attack FHT with infantry. Not that there arent a multitude of ways to do so.
An over extended FHT deserves to get owned, and CAN be owned for a fraction of its cost by a multitude of options.
Its already relegated to a backline support role on current meta. Proper use of a FHT is to concrete a reinforce/fallback position. Charging and chasing brainlessly is suicidal, and rightly so.

Mines are "luck" dependant? My friend, this is just flat out wrong.
As I said earlier:
1) Mines rely on proper placement.
2) Mines rely on intelligent and deliberate luring of enemies into it.

There is no RNG/Luck factor involved at all. Im sorry, but Mine and Luck in the same sentence is just misuse of both terms. Mines are about as concrete a bet as you can get in this game.

Mines are "luck" dependant? My friend, this is just flat out wrong.
As I said earlier:
1) Mines rely on proper placement.
2) Mines rely on intelligent and deliberate luring of enemies into it.

Even your most cunning tactics can go to the trash if the unit that trips the mine is a grenadier instead the Tiger Ace you were aiming for.

Although placement and tactics are important, the final outcome laying mines involves always some kind of luck.

Even your most cunning tactics can go to the trash if the unit that trips the mine is a grenadier instead the Tiger Ace you were aiming for.

Although placement and tactics are important, the final outcome laying mines involves always some kind of luck.

Even if a Gren trips it, its still pure profit.

Dude, seriously, really mega seriously, there is no LUCK involved in mines.

I know RNG is the catch-word of the month, but Mines are not related. At. All.

As I stated earlier in the thread.

T70 BIG RISK MATE

Someone needs to make a meme to take the piss out of those who actually think that's true.

T3 is a big risk? I would say most my losses are due to T3.

It can be built more often than not before the German T3.

It has these incredibly effective yet cheap tanks (T70, T34)

Even on a level or slightly disadvantaged game the T34 can come out the same time as a Ostwind making the Ostwind redundant.

However, if the Soviets have had a small fuel advantage than a T70 can appear without any worries of a HARD counter. The window it has is more than enough time to make nearly all German units retreat giving soviets map dominance. This fact i can live with.

The problem is when the units retreat, they get wiped by the T70, leaving the German with no map presence and no units.

Soviet Industry has just amplified this.

EDIT: IM GETTING TIRED OF T34 SPAM even without soviet industry, soviets manage to pull these tanks out their ass even without the fuel points.