There are a number of doctrinal abilities that combine are simply too powerful and imo they should be removed. Here are some examples feel free to add other abilities combinations:
Super heavies TD and powerful off maps:
Ele/stuka
ISU-152/IL-2 bombing
JT/assault artillery
ISu-152/mark target
Reasons:
Commander bring too much to the table and counter howitzer
Super heavy tanks loiter planes/ATG killers:
Tiger/loiter stuka
Tiger/frag bombing
IS-2/IL-2 loiter
IS-2/Incendiary artillery
Reasons:
Protect the Super heavies from flaking vehicles and deletes ATGs
Self propelled Artillery Commander and Howitzer Killer:
Priest/TOT
Sexton/Consecrations barrage
Reasons:
Complete hard counter to howitzer, while able to artyllery
Damage reduction doctrinal units and mainline repairs:
KV-1/conscript repairs
Reasons:
Little down time for repairs.
Superior hand held AT and Super heavies/Arty
OKW Tiger double shrecks
OKW JT double
Pershing AT rangers
Calliope AT ranges
Reasons:
These units should be powerful on their own without the need of extra AT protection
Combination of doctrinal abilities that should be removed
6 Nov 2020, 15:09 PM
#1
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
6 Nov 2020, 15:57 PM
#2
Posts: 268
There are a number of doctrinal abilities that combine are simply too powerful and imo they should be removed. Here are some examples feel free to add other abilities combinations:
Super heavies TD and powerful off maps:
Ele/stuka
ISU-152/IL-2 bombing
JT/assault artillery
ISu-152/mark target
i agree up to this point. Nothing controversial.
6 Nov 2020, 16:00 PM
#3
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
There are a number of doctrinal abilities that combine are simply too powerful and imo they should be removed. Here are some examples feel free to add other abilities combinations:
Super heavies TD and powerful off maps:
Ele/stuka
ISU-152/IL-2 bombing
JT/assault artillery
ISu-152/mark target
Reasons:
Commander bring too much to the table and counter howitzer
Super heavy tanks loiter planes/ATG killers:
Tiger/loiter stuka
Tiger/frag bombing
IS-2/IL-2 loiter
IS-2/Incendiary artillery
Reasons:
Protect the Super heavies from flaking vehicles and deletes ATGs
Self propelled Artillery Commander and Howitzer Killer:
Priest/TOT
Sexton/Consecrations barrage
Reasons:
Complete hard counter to howitzer, while able to artyllery
Damage reduction doctrinal units and mainline repairs:
KV-1/conscript repairs
Reasons:
Little down time for repairs.
Agreed with all except the last one. There are plenty of abilities and combinations that reduce repair times and conscript support tactics commander doesn't need a nerf.
6 Nov 2020, 16:04 PM
#4
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Agreed with all except the last one.
That is very nice feel do add you own.
There are plenty of abilities and combinations that reduce repair times and conscript support tactics commander doesn't need a nerf.
Well it makes sense that we would disagree in something.
Imo KV-1 repair way too fast by conscripts due to damage reduction but there are better commanders out there.
I suspect that since C.E. with sweepers now repair faster one could remove the damage reduction from KV-1s
6 Nov 2020, 16:35 PM
#5
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
That is very nice feel do add you own.
Well it makes sense that we would disagree in something.
Imo KV-1 repair way too fast by conscripts due to damage reduction but there are better commanders out there.
I suspect that since C.E. with sweepers now repair faster one could remove the damage reduction from KV-1s
I mean, it's OK for doctrines to have combos that work well together, as long as it's not overtly more powerfull than what other commanders offer as then you get stale meta. A combo like Stuka point neutralize, tank point decap and close the pocket is very potent but the commander is lacking in other areas so it's not really a problem.
Likewise conscript support tactics has very fast repairing KV-1s but the commander itself doesn't offer a lot else so I'd say it's fine. It's not any more potent than any other non-meta commander.
6 Nov 2020, 17:16 PM
#6
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I mean, it's OK for doctrines to have combos that work well together, as long as it's not overtly more powerfull than what other commanders offer as then you get stale meta. A combo like Stuka point neutralize, tank point decap and close the pocket is very potent but the commander is lacking in other areas so it's not really a problem.
In that commander it makes some sense although the commander is devastating vs unaware people and easy to counter in many cases.
Likewise conscript support tactics has very fast repairing KV-1s but the commander itself doesn't offer a lot else so I'd say it's fine. It's not any more potent than any other non-meta commander.
I would call the commander average to good.
Maybe it simply the KV-1 that is too cost efficient.
In all truth the 7men conscript upgrade has made repair kit allot stronger.
Or maybe is the fact that KV-1s beat PzIV easily and incendiary barrage takes out ATGs easily.
But I do see your point and I would like to hear what other have to say on the matter.
6 Nov 2020, 17:42 PM
#7
Posts: 32
KV-1/conscript repairs
Reasons:
Little down time for repairs.
6 Nov 2020, 18:59 PM
#8
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Agreed on most of these, and I would maybe add Overwatch's howitzer/sector assault. You could probably convince me it's fine but something about a howitzer with a multi-role air support ability feels off to me
6 Nov 2020, 19:28 PM
#9
Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1
I do agree with most of your points, except for the concentration barrage/Sexton hard counter howitzer, TOT do guarantee to kill howitzer but concentration barrage do not, i believe there was discussion about this specific ability before. Still, i dont deny the fact that Royal artillery have a very strong line up.
On the other side, i want to bring assault infantry and heavy tank combo on the table, such as ass gren into tiger or shock into Is2. Note that im specifically refer to assault infantry so combos like guard/isu or pfulisier/jagtiger is not included.
On the other side, i want to bring assault infantry and heavy tank combo on the table, such as ass gren into tiger or shock into Is2. Note that im specifically refer to assault infantry so combos like guard/isu or pfulisier/jagtiger is not included.
6 Nov 2020, 19:40 PM
#10
Posts: 195
In other words, you want to remove off-maps from most commanders that are even remotely useful in actual play, de facto removing off-maps from the game. From the UKF side, all Crocodile doctrines contain unique, powerful off-maps as well.
This is outright removal of content that Relic worked hard to develop and it's extremely likely they would reject such a change completely.
This forum and the balance team in no way has free reign over Relic's game, official patches are not mods. Speaking of patches, it is unlikely a new balance patch will happen at all considering the so-called complications of Relic's new pipeline. The 64-bit update and map patch look like their last love letter.
Going by many recent threads, this one included, several people are under the impression that it's a great idea to turn the game upside down with a possible last patch.
This is outright removal of content that Relic worked hard to develop and it's extremely likely they would reject such a change completely.
This forum and the balance team in no way has free reign over Relic's game, official patches are not mods. Speaking of patches, it is unlikely a new balance patch will happen at all considering the so-called complications of Relic's new pipeline. The 64-bit update and map patch look like their last love letter.
Going by many recent threads, this one included, several people are under the impression that it's a great idea to turn the game upside down with a possible last patch.
6 Nov 2020, 19:48 PM
#11
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
On the other side, i want to bring assault infantry and heavy tank combo on the table, such as ass gren into tiger or shock into Is2. Note that im specifically refer to assault infantry so combos like guard/isu or pfulisier/jagtiger is not included.
My personal preference would be that the strongest unit are reserved specially designed commanders commanders and those do not mix.
For instance "infatry" doctrines come with powerful infantries but no Super heavies/premium mediums
Superior armor commanders come with super heavies/premium mediums but no powerful infatry
But that is too ambitious so...
6 Nov 2020, 19:51 PM
#12
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
In other words, you want to remove off-maps from most commanders that are even remotely useful in actual play, de facto removing off-maps from the game...
The idea is try to bring as many commander as possible to about the same power level increasing the number of meta commanders.
Also to increase the important of choices a player makes. If he want to use powerful vehicles he will have to give up on the powerful off maps and so on.
Finally this will make balancing Super heavies easier since they will come without added power and it will also allow the off maps to remain powerful.
For instance stuka bombing has imo over nerfed for the single reason that is the same doctrine with Ele.
6 Nov 2020, 19:53 PM
#13
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Add:
Superior hand held AT and Super heavies/Arty
OKW Tiger double shrecks
OKW JT double
Pershing AT rangers
Calliope AT ranges
Superior hand held AT and Super heavies/Arty
OKW Tiger double shrecks
OKW JT double
Pershing AT rangers
Calliope AT ranges
6 Nov 2020, 20:01 PM
#14
Posts: 195
The idea is try to bring as many commander as possible to about the same power level increasing the number of meta commanders.
Also to increase the important of choices a player makes. If he want to use powerful vehicles he will have to give up on the powerful off maps and so on.
A lot of commanders don't get picked because they're simply badly designed. Ruining the actually good ones, making all choices equally miserable isn't making the game better or more fun to play.
Overhauling the commander system is well outside the scope of balance patches and in the realm of a COH3 or modding.
6 Nov 2020, 20:42 PM
#15
Posts: 416 | Subs: 1
I think the in-game performance of commanders matters more than strictly following design rules. Your first suggestion should not be controversial at all, but some of the others aren't really balance issues.
I agree that it would be much, much easier to change the superheavy+off map commanders than bring the others up to their level. I would suggest replacing the off maps with a more 1v1-type ability, and struggling commanders can have the off maps.
I agree that it would be much, much easier to change the superheavy+off map commanders than bring the others up to their level. I would suggest replacing the off maps with a more 1v1-type ability, and struggling commanders can have the off maps.
6 Nov 2020, 20:51 PM
#16
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I think the in-game performance of commanders matters more than strictly following design rules. Your first suggestion should not be controversial at all, but some of the others aren't really balance issues.I agree that "design rules" should not be followed "strictly" and there is fun in some commander like "encirclement".
The problem from my point of view is that it is difficult to balance some doctrinal units because of the "package" they come with and nerfing the rest of the abilities effect other already weak commanders.
I agree that it would be much, much easier to change the superheavy+off map commanders than bring the others up to their level. I would suggest replacing the off maps with a more 1v1-type ability, and struggling commanders can have the off maps.
Nice to see that we agree.
6 Nov 2020, 20:55 PM
#17
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
A lot of commanders don't get picked because they're simply badly designed. Ruining the actually good ones, making all choices equally miserable isn't making the game better or more fun to play.
Overhauling the commander system is well outside the scope of balance patches and in the realm of a COH3 or modding.
Imo increasing the number of commander that are viable is a good thing. In addition it help balance faction easier.
For instance Ostheer currently seem strong but probably because of certain commanders that allow them to take advantage of the change to the core units like earlier PG and stronger vet 3 grens.
6 Nov 2020, 21:07 PM
#18
Posts: 195
For instance Ostheer currently seem strong but probably because of certain commanders that allow them to take advantage of the change to the core units like earlier PG and stronger vet 3 grens.
Example for Wehrmacht: Pak 43-based commanders are useless because the game in general has too many ways to destroy stationary emplacements like it. They will never be an alternative to the Elefant doctrines for heavy anti-tank duty. It's not a commander problem, it's a COH2 problem. Making popular commanders less appealing won't fix this.
Example for Red Army: Partisans are a gimmick. Nerfing IS-2 commanders won't make them any more desirable.
Superheavies aren't anything that special anyway.
I agree that it would be much, much easier to change the superheavy+off map commanders than bring the others up to their level. I would suggest replacing the off maps with a more 1v1-type ability, and struggling commanders can have the off maps.
It is not easier or less disruptive to change doctrines that are currently the gold standard for playing the game vs. changing doctrines very few people even touch. Fixing what isn't broken...
Anyway, like I said, it's a fantasy that any of this will go through Relic. Your time is best spent making a mod if you don't like off maps in the game. They worked hard to craft all these airstrikes and artillery bombardments and they aren't going to remove them 7 years into the game's life.
6 Nov 2020, 23:36 PM
#19
Posts: 1594
The suggestion appears not to be to "Remove airstrikes and artillery bombardments from the game", but to instead merely replace them in doctrines that have them (And are too strong as a result) and the place them in other doctrines as a way to bring their power up to have more parity.
The idea that he's advocating just totally scrapping abilities isnt what he means, clearly.
Though some abilities DO need to be totally scrapped, like Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry.
The idea that he's advocating just totally scrapping abilities isnt what he means, clearly.
Though some abilities DO need to be totally scrapped, like Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry.
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