Conscript PPSH assault package

And that is simply misleading the upgrade goes together with base base squad and it the total that has to be balanced.

That is why LMG42 is cheaper than m1919

soo by this logic we balance out the better squad with a less cost efficient upgrade
alrighty...
volksgrenadiers outclass base conscripts soo in conclusion cons PPSH should cost 30 munitions and give 6x PPSH HE nades and smoke... the better squad has now been given a less cost efficient upgrade...

that argument was quite helpful thank you...

soo by this logic we balance out the better squad with a less cost efficient upgrade
alrighty...
volksgrenadiers outclass base conscripts soo in conclusion cons PPSH should cost 30 munitions and give 6x PPSH HE nades and smoke... the better squad has now been given a less cost efficient upgrade...

that argument was quite helpful thank you...

My advice stop reading so many post from allied fan boy number one, his post are non constructive mental gymnastics and so is this one.

My advice stop reading so many post from allied fan boy number one, his post are non constructive mental gymnastics and so is this one.

i mean thats moot to what i was trying to say really... all im saying is that theres no reason for cons PPSH to perform as it does at the moment... its completely outclassed by volks MP-40

i mean thats moot to what i was trying to say really... all im saying is that theres no reason for cons PPSH to perform as it does at the moment... its completely outclassed by volks MP-40

Play a game with friend using VG Mp-40 vs PPsh conscripts and see what happens.

In addition keep in mind that VG already have an early weapon upgrade and Conscripts do not.

And try not believe the myths some people like to post, where everything on the other side of fence are greener.

The HE grenade in this case is a nerf, it is not buff.

Play a game with friend using VG Mp-40 vs PPsh conscripts and see what happens.

i mean i already tested in cheatmods and volks MP40 win pretty reliably... thats without the HE nades of course..

In addition keep in mind that VG already have an early weapon upgrade and Conscripts do not.

isnt that an argument in favor of buffing conscript PPSH?

And try not believe the myths some people like to post, the HE grenade in this case is a nerf, it is not buff.

id honestly take an HE grenade over the molotov but thats just an opinion...


lastly im fine with volks MP40 as they are... id prefer if conscripts PPSH were buffed to the level of volks MP40 as cons PPSH is underperforming hard

i mean i already tested in cheatmods and volks MP40 win pretty reliably... thats without the HE nades of course..

The try to win in game and see what happens.

isnt that an argument in favor of buffing conscript PPSH?

No it is not, Conscripts where balanced not to have an early weapon upgrade.

VG are balanced to have a weapon upgrade and thus the weapon upgrade need to be worth the commander slot. That is why Pg get a better G43 and that is Thompson does not use a smg profile.

Now as I pointed out when first patched ppsh conscripts dominated the meta, if now the do not cut it they have simply been power creeped and buffing them is not the solution.

In addition I perosnally do not like the mosin/ppsh combo.

Now I am bit busy, thanks for the debate so far.

soo by this logic we balance out the better squad with a less cost efficient upgrade
alrighty...
volksgrenadiers outclass base conscripts soo in conclusion cons PPSH should cost 30 munitions and give 6x PPSH HE nades and smoke... the better squad has now been given a less cost efficient upgrade...

that argument was quite helpful thank you...

I'd make the argument that base Cons outclass Volks, actually. Pound for pound you're getting more out of Cons at most points in the game, except during a period after STGs. The main thing holding Cons back there is that they must buy AT grenades and Molotovs, which i would agree should be tweaked, but their combat performance is similar, and Cons in the lategame are by far a better unit.

The other difference between the Assgren-PPSHcon comparison and the PPSHcon-MP40Volk comparison is that Assgrens in the lategame have no utility, and are pretty much only good as a capping squad. Both Cons and Volks still maintain utility into the lategame through snares (And for the MP40 volks, smoke) so whichever one "loses" the other unit isn't made into basically a waste of population. You could make the argument that Cons or Volks should win here, but Volks are indeed more expensive.

And again, Volks don't have merge, and MP40 Volks can't deal with buildings.

The try to win in game and see what happens.

against cons PPSH? yeah thats been done already...

No it is not, Conscripts where balanced not to have an early weapon upgrade.

then why are conscripts widely considered as the worst line infantry in terms of combat ability? they are widely considered to be worse than volksgrens...

VG are balanced to have a weapon upgrade and thus the weapon upgrade need to be worth the commander slot. That is why Pg get a better G43 and that is Thompson does not use a smg profile.

indeed that is true a commander upgrade should be worth the slot... unfortunately the problem arises when the base unit isnt balanced against its competition at all... base volksgrenadiers are superior to base conscripts to the point where the meta against OKW has always been M3 > penal because conscript is simply untenable...

also your example is flawed PGs dont get a weapon upgrade...in fact by citing that example youve given further proof to buff cons PPSH...

Now as I pointed out when first patched ppsh conscripts dominated the meta, if now the do not cut it they have simply been power creeped and buffing them is not the solution.

there are several reasons as to why i doubt a buff to cons PPSH will result into them dominating though... first is that during the era of Cons PPSH one would never use it against OKW... cons ppsh was meta only against ostheer since STG volks (and now MP40 volks aswell) outclassed PPSH cons and going flame penal blob meant the MG42 would punish you hard for the high cost/low field presence of the penal.... the meta against OKW was instead the far scarier M3 flame penal blob...

without the MG42 cons PPSH wouldve never been meta against ostheer... its far easier to just blob flame penals and wipe the opponent off the map...

In addition I perosnally do not like the mosin/ppsh combo.

agreed... its a mistake...

I'd make the argument that base Cons outclass Volks, actually. Pound for pound you're getting more out of Cons at most points in the game, except during a period after STGs. The main thing holding Cons back there is that they must buy AT grenades and Molotovs, which i would agree should be tweaked, but their combat performance is similar, and Cons in the lategame are by far a better unit.

conscripts lose to volks at ranges above 10 and still bleed relatively more since volks never had their reinforcement cost adjusted to match their new price... in the end you still have to outnumber volks to win against them and granted its very much doable to delay or even beat volksgrenadiers with just conscripts... but to say that cons outclass volks and not the other way around is wrong....

and yeah... theres the AT nade/molotov which you have to pay for...

The other difference between the Assgren-PPSHcon comparison and the PPSHcon-MP40Volk comparison is that Assgrens in the lategame have no utility, and are pretty much only good as a capping squad. Both Cons and Volks still maintain utility into the lategame through snares (And for the MP40 volks, smoke) so whichever one "loses" the other unit isn't made into basically a waste of population.

this doesnt address my argument of volk mp40 winning against cons PPSH... but i will say that 240mp + 60 muni and 260mp + 45 muni is more expensive than 280 muni... the airborne drop for munitions costs 200mp and provides 50 munitions which gives us a somewhat workable "mp to muni exchange rate" even if it is a very conditional exchange rate... and even if u treat MP and muni as 1 to 1 in exchange then cons/volk upgrades are still more expensive than assgrens...

You could make the argument that Cons or Volks should win here, but Volks are indeed more expensive.

240mp + 60 muni vs 260mp + 45 muni... they cost around the same but the former not only wins against the latter but also gets smoke and HE...

And again, Volks don't have merge, and MP40 Volks can't deal with buildings.

the HE nade outclasses the incendiary nade IMO... i find HE nades great for open combat while molotovs are only useful in urban warfare... at that point id just use flamers (which the doctrine gets)....the one case id say the incendiary/molly outclasses the HE nade is when you are fighting MG42s...

merge is good for merge/flamer but with the a weapon upgrade it really isnt that good anymore...

Not to mention VGs cost more MP.

INITIALLY. fully kitted out cons cost a heap more

INITIALLY. fully kitted out cons cost a heap more

If you want to add the cost of tech for conscripts you have to add the cost of truck for OKW.

The tech Myth has been debate again again and it should be over by now.

As matter of fact OKW probably have one of the worse tech systems in the game currently and that is why the MOD team is contemplating way of improving it.

If you want to add the cost of tech for conscripts you have to add the cost of truck for OKW.

The tech Myth has been debate again again and it should be over by now.

As matter of fact OKW probably have one of the worse tech systems in the game currently and that is why the MOD team is contemplating way of improving it.

then you have to add the SOV tech system aswell... mech HQ is basically sov T3 yet guess which one costs more...

conscripts lose to volks at ranges above 10 and still bleed relatively more since volks never had their reinforcement cost adjusted to match their new price... in the end you still have to outnumber volks to win against them and granted its very much doable to delay or even beat volksgrenadiers with just conscripts... but to say that cons outclass volks and not the other way around is wrong....

I did some tests, and yeah, Volks do win above range 10, by a higher margin than I thought they did, actually, though I wasnt exactly doing the most thorough of testing. Their reinforcement costs are comparable though, 26 per volk when compared to 20 for Cons.

Id still posit that Cons are much better lategame than Volks though, especially when 7manned.

Id still posit that Cons are much better lategame than Volks though, especially when 7manned.

vet 0 performance is more important than vet X performance... base cons really dont match up to base volks really...

then you have to add the SOV tech system aswell... mech HQ is basically sov T3 yet guess which one costs more...

And then you have to take into account that OKW have the worse teching system.

The problem is that you have decided that Soviet are the weakest faction, from that you come to the conclusion that all soviet unit and abilities are inferior. You tend to see thing through that prism.

That is simply not the case but I really do not have the time to explain to you why. I have explain my point of view on PPsh (especially in post 88) and have very little to add, feel free to have a different opinion. Thank for the debate so far.

If you want to add the cost of tech for conscripts you have to add the cost of truck for OKW.

The tech Myth has been debate again again and it should be over by now.

As okw, if you are going fussies or sturms will you still buy an okw truck? If you go CE, penals or Maxims will you still unlock molitovs and AT nades? If you go call in infantry as either faction will you?
If you are not getting conscripts you will NOT get molotov or AT nades because they don't do ANYTHING for ANY other unit. The upgrades effect ONLY conscripts and provide no other benifit at all (well they do effect partisans if I recall but I literally can't recall the last time I saw them)

If you build 4 conscripts and get molitovs and AT nades you are basicly paying 281mp due to the upgrades for conscripts only effecting said conscripts and providing no other benifit.

If getting at nades and molitovs also unlocked the maxim and other bonuses we could start discounting it but as it does no such thing it cannot be done.

And then you have to take into account that OKW have the worse teching system.

arguable... OKW has bad tech because of healing but the soviet tech system is equally horrible since you are left out without a weapon upgrade for much of the game...

The problem is that you have decided that Soviet are the weakest faction,

but it is... SOV is THE worst faction ingame

from that you come to the conclusion that all soviet unit and abilities are inferior. You tend to see thing through that prism.

the other way around really... it is because most soviet units are inferior that the soviets are the weakest... the soviets have a few doctrinal goodies like guards shocks DSHK T-34-85s KV2s KV1s ISU-152s and IS-2s and a few core goodies like the T-70 ZIS3 SU-85 M3 arguably the mortar unfortunately the rest of the lineup is just subpar and outright inferior to what other factions get...

conscripts? usable but subpar
maxim? trash
T-34-76? the worst medium tank lineup
SU-76? subpar and overshadowed
M5? bad timing
katyusha? fast TOT... its a good unit but its worse than all core rocket arty imo..

That is simply not the case but I really do not have the time to explain to you why. I have explain my point of view on PPsh (especially in post 88) and have very little to add, feel free to have a different opinion. Thank for the debate so far.

this isnt the case though... SOV is most definitely underperforming... a direct SOV vs OKW matchup relies almost entirely on OKW not fielding panzerfusiliers... this way SOV can abuse the M3 and punish OKW for the next 5 minutes then stall for a T-70.... if OKW fields panzerfusiliers then the M3 wont save you and conscripts will simply get trashed...

and no the maxim is not an answer... not at its current state...

.

Each system has benefits and draw backs the tech systems has been debated over and over and axis faction do not have an advantage because of it.

..

You entitled to you opinion even when it wrong.

And here is replay of isildur beating Osttrupen Ostheer using the soviets at a top level game something that wouldn't happen if thing where any where close to what you describe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0gekQFP3r0&list=PL5Gq-kPFBcWFXhtEAxQWkSUUj-XK_f83n&index=6

Each system has benefits and draw backs the tech systems has been debated over and over and axis faction do not have an advantage because of it.

For other allied factions yes. For soviet no. Other allied factions side grades impact their whole roster (except for Brit nades) while soviet only effect cons. As I said there is absolutely no way to remove the cost of cons from their side grades because either you have cons with an incomplete kit or you have cons whom you have paid extra fof.
For Volks you will have a full kit regardless on if you build them or not. The investment is the same and the value you get from 1 volks of 15 is the same.

For other allied factions yes. For soviet no. Other allied factions side grades impact their whole roster (except for Brit nades) while soviet only effect cons. As I said there is absolutely no way to remove the cost of cons from their side grades because either you have cons with an incomplete kit or you have cons whom you have paid extra fof.
For Volks you will have a full kit regardless on if you build them or not. The investment is the same and the value you get from 1 volks of 15 is the same.

After being burned to death again again from clow cars I am pretty sure most okw player would love to be to get faust as side grade without having to set up truck.

I have provided my opinion on Ppsh and on tech and have little to add.