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5 Nov 2020, 20:44 PM
#241
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

these two statements have the same meaning

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2020, 20:09 PMgbem

yes but if MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but has less suppression the fact that its doing "less damage" is a disadvantage as opposed to an advantage in this case...


jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2020, 20:23 PMgbem

exactly... MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but MG1 has less suppression... the fact that MG1 is doing more damage is not an advantage but a disadvantage in this case....


5 Nov 2020, 21:01 PM
#242
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Read again.

Your first post is erroneous. You can't have less suppression and less dmg at equal DPS.
5 Nov 2020, 21:03 PM
#243
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

yes but if MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but (MG1) has less suppression the fact that (MG2) doing "less damage" is a disadvantage as opposed to an advantage in this case...

id guess i couldve worded it better...
5 Nov 2020, 21:10 PM
#244
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2020, 21:03 PMgbem
yes but if MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but (MG1) has less suppression the fact that (MG2) doing "less damage" is a disadvantage as opposed to an advantage in this case...

id guess i couldve worded it better...


Which is still wrong. If we both agree that an MG is supposed to suppress first and dmg is secondary, the fact that it is doing less damage is not a disadvantage. Is a by product of been able to suppress unit faster.


5 Nov 2020, 21:33 PM
#245
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


...
That's an exaggeration. Unfortunately serealia does a poor job at taking into account vet weapon profiles or it's missing several non main weapon such as grenades. Unless you were comparing vet 0 MG42 vs vet 3 Dhska the DPS discrepancy is nowhere near close.

If the guide is correct, they have equal vet values outside of vet 1. The difference between DHska and MG42 is between 25% at the far ranges and then floating between around 35% to 45%

According to cruzz and serealia Dshk at vet 3 has a DPS at range 10/15/35:

59.5/50.4/13

HMG42 for the same ranges has:
43.7/35.7/11

So there is notable difference:
x136%/x141/x118

(although serealia does mess mess up comparisons)
5 Nov 2020, 21:37 PM
#246
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Which is still wrong. If we both agree that an MG is supposed to suppress first and dmg is secondary, the fact that it is doing less damage is not a disadvantage. Is a by product of been able to suppress unit faster.




yes but if MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but (MG1) has less suppression the fact that (MG2) doing "less damage" is an advantage as opposed to a disadvantage in this case...

aight flipped the words
Pip
6 Nov 2020, 03:34 AM
#247
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2020, 21:37 PMgbem


yes but if MG1 has the same DPS as MG2 but (MG1) has less suppression the fact that (MG2) doing "less damage" is an advantage as opposed to a disadvantage in this case...

aight flipped the words


Look dude it isn't an advantage to be doing less damage no matter the reason.

Lower damage is merely a by-product of the higher suppression. The higher suppression is the advantage, merely because it comes with the lower damage does NOT mean that the lower damage itself is in any way advantageous.

Please stop trying to make this argument, it's absolutely nonsensical.

6 Nov 2020, 08:34 AM
#248
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2020, 03:34 AMPip


Look dude it isn't an advantage to be doing less damage no matter the reason.

Lower damage is merely a by-product of the higher suppression. The higher suppression is the advantage, merely because it comes with the lower damage does NOT mean that the lower damage itself is in any way advantageous.

Please stop trying to make this argument, it's absolutely nonsensical.



i understood the argument just fine... i was merely attempting to correct grammar...
6 Nov 2020, 16:21 PM
#249
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2020, 03:34 AMPip


Look dude it isn't an advantage to be doing less damage no matter the reason.

Lower damage is merely a by-product of the higher suppression. The higher suppression is the advantage, merely because it comes with the lower damage does NOT mean that the lower damage itself is in any way advantageous.

Please stop trying to make this argument, it's absolutely nonsensical.


Actually, higher damage is. Detriment to an Mg. Look at the vickers whom notoriously bursts down models. This leads to requiring a target and slowing down pin rate

It has advantages too, like units in buildings and light cars ect but all in all more damage seems to be counter to the primary role of MGs
6 Nov 2020, 21:14 PM
#250
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Actually, higher damage is. Detriment to an Mg. Look at the vickers whom notoriously bursts down models. This leads to requiring a target and slowing down pin rate

It has advantages too, like units in buildings and light cars ect but all in all more damage seems to be counter to the primary role of MGs


Its not "counter" to it at all... its just not necessary for it. As long as a model isn't killed before the squad is supressed, more damage is always beneficial. So you know... for the mg42, having 40dps long range wouldn't be a drawback despite the fact that 40 long range dps is an absolutely absurd amount.
Pip
6 Nov 2020, 23:21 PM
#251
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


Actually, higher damage is. Detriment to an Mg. Look at the vickers whom notoriously bursts down models. This leads to requiring a target and slowing down pin rate

It has advantages too, like units in buildings and light cars ect but all in all more damage seems to be counter to the primary role of MGs


As Elchino7 has said, this idea that the Vickers does "Lots of damage" is due to it's low suppression. At least according to Stein's chart it does less damage than the HMG42, it's just that it's low suppression means it kills a model before it manages to suppress (Which reduces damage by half)

Reducing it's damage would not strictly be a "buff", it would be a nerf that "fixes" a somewhat unintended side effect.

I mean, the counter to MGs isn't to run squads full of low HP models at them, hoping the delay between killing them will prevent it suppressing you in time, after all.
7 Nov 2020, 01:06 AM
#252
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Its not "counter" to it at all... its just not necessary for it. As long as a model isn't killed before the squad is supressed, more damage is always beneficial. So you know... for the mg42, having 40dps long range wouldn't be a drawback despite the fact that 40 long range dps is an absolutely absurd amount.

Unnecessary with the potential of ruining the job feels counter to the units role to me.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2020, 23:21 PMPip


As Elchino7 has said, this idea that the Vickers does "Lots of damage" is due to it's low suppression. At least according to Stein's chart it does less damage than the HMG42, it's just that it's low suppression means it kills a model before it manages to suppress (Which reduces damage by half)

Reducing it's damage would not strictly be a "buff", it would be a nerf that "fixes" a somewhat unintended side effect.

I mean, the counter to MGs isn't to run squads full of low HP models at them, hoping the delay between killing them will prevent it suppressing you in time, after all.


Its both frankly. Anytime ANYBODY complains about the vickers not suppressing people will chime up about how it kills more though! Perhaps the phrasing should be damage relative to suppression rate? At any rate the mg42 might do more damage as said but the vickers DEALS more damage and that contributes to the fuckery of it not doing its job.
7 Nov 2020, 09:25 AM
#253
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Unnecessary with the potential of ruining the job feels counter to the units role to me.



Its both frankly. Anytime ANYBODY complains about the vickers not suppressing people will chime up about how it kills more though! Perhaps the phrasing should be damage relative to suppression rate? At any rate the mg42 might do more damage as said but the vickers DEALS more damage and that contributes to the fuckery of it not doing its job.

When I was testing the MGs suppression speeds, I also tested the vickers.
Going into the tests, I had the same assumptions about the efficacy of the vickers, but the results surprised me and caused me to take a closer look at the vickers stats...

In NO test at 35(sightrange)+ meters did the vickers kill a model before suppressing. Now granted in an actual match you might run into a heavily damaged squad and the vickers could target that model on 20 hp or less and that would be problematic. But it does not seem to be an issue for most situations.
The whole "vickers doesn't suppress well because it kills models" seems an overexageration of the situation. The dps at 30m is 14, so to kill a full hp model in neutral cover with 1.0 RA, it'll take the vickers 5.7 seconds to kill it. The vickers has about 1.5 seconds to suppress at that range.
That said, the vickers does take roughly 40% longer to suppress a unit then the MG42 so it may just feel weak in comparison.
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