Why Soviets are OP

Jesus christ of all things to take away from my overall point thats what you took?
Lol

The """"weakness"""" is the rng of automatch and a 15 min gamble of your opponent to end the game. If they dont win the early the games goes from "i have advantage" to "How the fuck do i keep up with his superior artillery,sight infantry and tanks."

Hell id go so far as to say. One single t3485 or kv1 is worth two p4s in terms of sheer value and potenial.

Like this """weakness""" will go away the moment ostruppen are nerfed.

And another thing. Just surviving 15 min literally paves the path to advantage arguably greater than the early game advantaged grantes by ostruppen.

The """"weakness""" at worst is situtional. I've had countless matches on langres,nexus,crossroads where i can easily hold one side and alowly push my opponent out.

Though i dont even know why you're weighing in when you play fuck all 1v1s lol.

I have more 1v1 soviet games than you and have held a higher rank with twice the playerbase than you have now. So you can take the rank card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

You discount all the easy axis early game victories as matchmaking issues but you do count the times you are able to easily hold half the map against FHT as if this is isn't the result of the same matchmaking issues. "Lol"

Soviets have some good units but you and Giap just ignore the other half of the equation, the axis troops. Sure 7 man conscripts are good but so are Obers and Pgrens that wipe your units with bundle nades regardless of doctrine. Sure SVTs are good, but so are G43s fussies tearing through your units. Etc.

Most of the stuff you guys are listing is also mutually exclusive, which creates the illusion that the faction as a whole is better than it is. Like saying how SVTs beat STGs and T34/85s beat P4s.

I have more 1v1 soviet games than you and have held a higher rank with twice the playerbase than you have now. So you can take the rank card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

You discount all the easy axis early game victories as matchmaking issues but you do count the times you are able to easily hold half the map against FHT as if this is isn't the result of the same matchmaking issues. "Lol"

Soviets have some good units but you and Giap just ignore the other half of the equation, the axis troops. Sure 7 man conscripts are good but so are Obers and Pgrens that wipe your units with bundle nades regardless of doctrine. Sure SVTs are good, but so are G43s fussies tearing through your units. Etc.

Most of the stuff you guys are listing is also mutually exclusive, which creates the illusion that the faction as a whole is better than it is. Like saying how SVTs beat STGs and T34/85s beat P4s.

Aside from this being full of assumptions and senseless arguments. I'll answer each bit. This is just you being either delusional or stupid and essentially just trying to ignore the main thrust of my arguments. But hey you do you.

"I have more 1v1 soviet games than you and have held a higher rank with twice the playerbase than you have now. So you can take the rank card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine."

This is really embarrassing for you, I didn't talk about playercard nor ranks, I talked about playing 1vs1s, and lookie here. http://prntscr.com/vhetdx you haven't played them in fucking forever. Game count is irrelevant and worthless, I could have a thousand games from 2013 and those experiences would simply not apply to the current meta or how the game plays at all.

"You discount all the easy axis early game victories as matchmaking issues but you do count the times you are able to easily hold half the map against FHT as if this is isn't the result of the same matchmaking issues."
Again more assumptions, I was pulling from my experience playing in customs. Not automatch. Automatch is dogshit trash and shouldn't be relied on for much until (Which most likely is never) it gets fixed.


"Soviets have some good units but you and Giap just ignore the other half of the equation, the axis troops. Sure 7 man conscripts are good but so are Obers and Pgrens that wipe your units with bundle nades regardless of doctrine. Sure SVTs are good, but so are G43s fussies tearing through your units. Etc."

??? This makes no sense. I'm not ignoring the other half, this is where your lack of 1v1 experience cleary shows. Pfussies are dogshit that require an 80 (90? i think it got changed awhile back) muni investment, a loss of going t2, and obers are supremely lategame, require vet two and their lmg upgrade to even stand a chance, even then there's a good chance they lose engagements. Are pgrens OP, yes they arrive to early, but come lategame and thusly 7men so do pgrens too lose their relevance, they may not have an ostruppen level of useless come lategame but they will find that when trying to push 7men behind sandbags becomes a futile effort that will bleed you dry.

"Most of the stuff you guys are listing is also mutually exclusive, which creates the illusion that the faction as a whole is better than it is. Like saying how SVTs beat STGs and T34/85s beat P4s"
That was not my intention. And irregardless of that the point your trying to make doesn't make any sense. 7men are stock of which I was talking about the most how ludicrous it is, so is the zis and the t70 all incredibly OP units. With ridiculous value and output. And for the record 7men>Volks with stgs

I have more 1v1 soviet games than you and have held a higher rank with twice the playerbase than you have now. So you can take the rank card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

You discount all the easy axis early game victories as matchmaking issues but you do count the times you are able to easily hold half the map against FHT as if this is isn't the result of the same matchmaking issues. "Lol"

Soviets have some good units but you and Giap just ignore the other half of the equation, the axis troops. Sure 7 man conscripts are good but so are Obers and Pgrens that wipe your units with bundle nades regardless of doctrine. Sure SVTs are good, but so are G43s fussies tearing through your units. Etc.

Most of the stuff you guys are listing is also mutually exclusive, which creates the illusion that the faction as a whole is better than it is. Like saying how SVTs beat STGs and T34/85s beat P4s.

What you're saying about ignoring one half of the equation is true. In that sense the title of this thread is misleading. Just see it as a coh2 polemic. If you don't get the Katitofs and Vippers of this world going with a provocative edge a thread like this will most likely just fall by the wayside.

Basically the point of this thread is that if you strip away certain strong Wehrmacht doctrines that most people desparately want to see fixed (primarily Osttruppen, but also 5men = the other half of the equation) Soviets end up in an extremely dominant position that renders them op. I stand by that. As for OKW there is no other half of the equation because that faction is just straight up inferior imo, so with regards the the OKW matchup the title is actually accurate.

You mention PGs and Obers specifically. PGs are op due to their timing and vet. However once you take away Osttruppen they become much weaker. A slow gren opening doesn't snowball nearly as well into PG into LVs. It still might be necessary to nerf their vet but I'm telling you much of their opness is dependant on Osttruppen.

As for Obers they are just not that great in 1v1. At the point you get access to obers (they are only good with LMGs) you have to have 4 inf squads already at the absolute minimum and you'll hopefully be in the process of getting a P4 so you'll rarely have a lot of spare manpower. Obers are also particularly inefficient vs Sandbags unless they have STGs which is obviously a problem against Soviets.

... If you don't get the Katitofs and Vippers of this world going with a provocative edge a thread like this will most likely just fall by the wayside.
...

Pls leave my name out of it.

And for the record 7men>Volks with stgs

Not to put undue focus on one point, but (late) Volks are pretty much the worst infantry in the game, aren't they? Their combat veterancy is rather sub-par, and their price/performance is rather abysmal, to my knowledge. This is, again, only lategame. Volks do their job early, and very well through early-mid to mid, thanks to STGs. They just don't scale threateningly.

Ostensibly they're supposed to be "replaced" by Obers for combat scenarios, but I've never really liked this design decision.

7man beating them isn't, by itself, too much to brag about, is it? Forgive me if this is a bit of an un-nuanced take.

1: 7men cons are once vetted up to 3. The best infantry in the entire game, with flares,sandbags to neuter any other mainline barring maybe 5 man grens who are equally retarded. This means once you pasa a certain threshold you enter a stage where your infantry may as weöl not exist. Volks bleed and even if they win fights the end up trading unequally.

actually this has been argued before... 7 man only adds 17% dps at all ranges 17% HP and around 15-16% dps in cover...

an LMG42 upgrade gives outright 36% DPS at range 20 and 61% at range 30... other upgrades like the SVT or the STG44 also provide massive DPS upgrades at a wide variety of ranges...

STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range 10...

even SVT a DPS boost of 30% at range 30 28% at range 20 and 35% at range 10...

really 7 man conscripts are strong only because of their significant vet 3 bonuses that normal conscripts already get and the 20% vet bonus makes it easier to get to vet 3....

also LMG obers kinda destroy 7 man cons when they are fully vet...

Their upgrades are straight up inferior (svts for example across the board have better dps than stgs)

STGs are nondoc... why compare a nondoc upgrade to a doctrinal upgrade? try comparing nondoc upgrades to each other or doc upgrades to each other...

and even if you do compare them id say theyre roughly even
STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range 10...
SVT a DPS boost of 30% at range 30 28% at range 20 and 35% at range 10...
STG gives a bigger boost to range 20 and range 10 DPS than SVT does... SVT only gives a bigger boost at range 30... and dueling at range 30 really isnt the job of the STG...

and yes 2x STGs give a 30% DPS boost to the volksgrenadier squad dps while 3x SVTs only give 28% DPS boost at range 20 to the conscript squad.. this means conscripts which normally lose at range 20 to volks will lose even harder when the engagement occurs below range 20... adjust accordingly...

3: the premium tanks. 85s are better than p4 in every single way, kv1s practically require panthers to cope, ans the fact that they deploy fleets of tanka with 5 shot hp qith the ability to self repair will inevitably lose you the lategame repair war.

wait soo a doctrinal premium medium and heavy is OP.....despite being hard countered by a nondoc premium medium tank?

Soviets are OP (But only in the mid-lategame)

but they arent.... factions like the UKF and OST can basically do what SOV can without the massive earlygame disadvantage... and USF has the cancerous jackson pack howitzer and arguably the second best or the best non premium medium in the game...

7man beating them isn't, by itself, too much to brag about, is it? Forgive me if this is a bit of an un-nuanced take.

yeah it isnt... 7 man only gives a 17% DPS boost at all ranges a 17% HP boost and 15% cover bonus...

STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range... any engagement occuring at any range or below between 7 man and STG volks at vet 0 outside of cover will result into a volk win... 7 man conscripts only beat STG volks when fighting in cover vs cover at ranges 20 to 30... with a tossup at around 20 to 10... outside of that STG volks will win any cover to cover engagement under range 10...


in any realistic comparison between mainlines 7 man isnt amazing on its own... its mostly comparable to bog standard mainline upgrades.... its only when you consider conscripts massive vet bonuses and the 20% veterancy rate does 7 man TRULY shine...

yeah it isnt... 7 man only gives a 17% DPS boost at all ranges a 17% HP boost and 15% cover bonus...

STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range... any engagement occuring at any range or below between 7 man and STG volks at vet 0 outside of cover will result into a volk win... 7 man conscripts only beat STG volks when fighting in cover vs cover at ranges 20 to 30... outside of that STG volks will win any cover to cover engagement under range 20...


in any realistic comparison between mainlines 7 man isnt amazing on its own... its only when you consider conscripts massive vet bonuses and the 20% veterancy rate does 7 man TRULY shine...

The veterancy bonuses both Volks and Cons get are assumed to be in action here, especially the Con ones, given that they get veterancy gain bonuses when upgraded.

We're primarily talking about Lategame, after all. The specific bonuses a weapon upgrade gives are misleading when compared to what they do to the squad they're on.

The veterancy bonuses both Volks and Cons get are assumed to be in action here, especially the Con ones, given that they get veterancy gain bonuses when upgraded.

We're primarily talking about Lategame, after all. The specific bonuses a weapon upgrade gives are misleading when compared to what they do to the squad they're on.

base vet 3 cons outclass vet 5 volks... vet 3 cons have lower target size and have greater DPS at range 20 and below... vet 5 volks will beat vet 3 cons only if they engage above range 25 and even at range 30 win soo slightly that its within the realm of RNG... soo its more of a tossup more than anything...


thats not considering upgrades of course... with the upgrades 7 man will win every cover to cover engagement at all ranges and still have a massive chance of beating stg volks at almost any range even outside of cover

however concerning vet 5 volks vs the vet bonuses of any other mainline... no... vet 5 volks get pretty okay veterancy bonuses... its just that conscript and grenadier veterancy bonuses outclass most veterancy bonuses that factions get... this is because grens and cons are outclassed earlygame...

Hell id go so far as to say. One single t3485 or kv1 is worth two p4s in terms of sheer value and potenial.

nice hyperbole... obviously wrong but nice try... if you dont see how 2 P4s which have more combat ability and field presence outclass 1 T-34-85 or 1 KV1 in almost every way other then repair time and cost then im simply aloof... but then you consider the MG42 UP... at this point i probably shouldnt be surprised

Are pgrens OP, yes they arrive to early, but come lategame and thusly 7men so do pgrens too lose their relevance, they may not have an ostruppen level of useless come lategame but they will find that when trying to push 7men behind sandbags becomes a futile effort that will bleed you dry.

you do know that pgrens actually arrive earlier than 7 man... its 85+15+25 fuel to 7 man while pgrens only take 5+40 to be unlocked assuming ost builds T1... not to mention SOV has to pay for an additional 20 fuel to unlock molotov/faust... something OST gets for free...

stop spreading bullshit... its clear that you have some biases when you claimed the MG42 was the worst MG in the game but this one is even more objectively wrong than the last one...

actually this has been argued before... 7 man only adds 17% dps at all ranges 17% HP and around 15-16% dps in cover...

an LMG42 upgrade gives outright 36% DPS at range 20 and 61% at range 30... other upgrades like the SVT or the STG44 also provide massive DPS upgrades at a wide variety of ranges...

STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range 10...

even SVT a DPS boost of 30% at range 30 28% at range 20 and 35% at range 10...

really 7 man conscripts are strong only because of their significant vet 3 bonuses that normal conscripts already get and the 20% vet bonus makes it easier to get to vet 3....

also LMG obers kinda destroy 7 man cons when they are fully vet...



STGs are nondoc... why compare a nondoc upgrade to a doctrinal upgrade? try comparing nondoc upgrades to each other or doc upgrades to each other...

and even if you do compare them id say theyre roughly even
STG for example gives a DPS boost of 16% at range 30 30% at range 20 and 39% at range 10...
SVT a DPS boost of 30% at range 30 28% at range 20 and 35% at range 10...
STG gives a bigger boost to range 20 and range 10 DPS than SVT does... SVT only gives a bigger boost at range 30... and dueling at range 30 really isnt the job of the STG...

and yes 2x STGs give a 30% DPS boost to the volksgrenadier squad dps while 3x SVTs only give 28% DPS boost at range 20 to the conscript squad.. this means conscripts which normally lose at range 20 to volks will lose even harder when the engagement occurs below range 20... adjust accordingly...





wait soo a doctrinal premium medium and heavy is OP.....despite being hard countered by a nondoc premium medium tank?



but they arent.... factions like the UKF and OST can basically do what SOV can without the massive earlygame disadvantage... and USF has the cancerous jackson pack howitzer and arguably the second best or the best non premium medium in the game...

Playercard? I can already tell you're either
A: Teamgame player (Meaning i have no reason to talk to you in the first place because you experience simply does not apply to mine)
B: Rank 1000 scrub.

Not to put undue focus on one point, but (late) Volks are pretty much the worst infantry in the game, aren't they? Their combat veterancy is rather sub-par, and their price/performance is rather abysmal, to my knowledge. This is, again, only lategame. Volks do their job early, and very well through early-mid to mid, thanks to STGs. They just don't scale threateningly.

Ostensibly they're supposed to be "replaced" by Obers for combat scenarios, but I've never really liked this design decision.

7man beating them isn't, by itself, too much to brag about, is it? Forgive me if this is a bit of an un-nuanced take.

Realistically speaking you don't replace mainline with elites unless everything gets wiped (In which games your getting into 45+ min games where both sides will have 3+ tanks, meaning soviets would be favored anyway lol) I'd call volks pure early game inf, moment USF gets 2x bars they go to shit, moment svts&7men hit the field you're fucked. And brits will fuck you up anyway, with or without 5man sections.

So no, you can't replace 260 mp infantry with 320 (360? can't remember) Elites, especially since you'd need four of them to get the field presence needed to compete. Not to mention the vet 2 + upgrade, just isn't viable quite frankly.

Playercard? I can already tell you're either
A: Teamgame player (Meaning i have no reason to talk to you in the first place because you experience simply does not apply to mine)
B: Rank 1000 scrub.

soo now the playercard argument appears... what happened to " I didn't talk about playercard nor ranks"? id guess being a 1v1 player gives you all the excuse to spread misinformation... yeah i play team games for the most part since i quit playing 1v1s for a year aleady... but that really gives 0 excuse for you to make up bullshit comparisons like you do... i actually disproved them with ACTUAL NUMBERS

cite some actual stats to backup your bullshit claims or you can simply

take the rank card and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

soo now the playercard argument appears... what happened to " I didn't talk about playercard nor ranks"? id guess being a 1v1 player gives you all the excuse to spread misinformation... yeah i play team games for the most part since i quit playing 1v1s for a year aleady... but that really gives 0 excuse for you to make up comparison like you do... i actually disproved them with ACTUAL NUMBERS

cite some actual stats to backup your bullshit claims or you can simply

Are you being intentionally daft?

"Though i dont even know why you're weighing in when you play fuck all 1v1s lol."
The original context, now this might be REALLY hard to grasp, but its not talking about player cards or game count. but about fucking playing 1v1s. Which just you admitted you don't do so to round back to what i was originally saying. "Playercard? I can already tell you're either
A: Teamgame player (Meaning i have no reason to talk to you in the first place because you experience simply does not apply to mine)"

Hope this helps explain why i have no reason to debate the game with you!

i cited some actual stats to the performance of units beyond your "my feelings" argument... your feelings are subjective and thus subject to biases... i gave some actual evidence to the numbers behind it and as to why i disagree with you... but instead of attempting to refute them you simply ignore them and continue on being delusional...

and no being a 1v1 player doesnt excuse jack shit... in a 1v1 the STG will always have a 30% dps boost to volks at range 20 regardless of game mode... it doesnt change whether its 1v1 2v2 or 4v4 hell 100v100... the STG does 30% dps at range 20 to volks period... that is IRREFUTABLE... that is FACTUAL... backup your claims with actual data before arguing because at this point your spouting out bullshit...

I'm gonna ignore most of the scrubs posting in the thread and focus on the baseline of giaa's arguement.

Soviet lategame is utterly retarded. Honestly it borders on absurd, yes the early game sucks ass, and youll have plenty of games where it closes out quickly (because automatch is ahit, but thats another talk altogether), the faction imo is reliant on maps that have tons of resources and frequently go to lategame. (Think crossroada,nexus and langres).

The main issue just comes down to a plethora of absurd shit.

1: 7men cons are once vetted up to 3. The best infantry in the entire game, with flares,sandbags to neuter any other mainline barring maybe 5 man grens who are equally retarded. This means once you pasa a certain threshold you enter a stage where your infantry may as weöl not exist. Volks bleed and even if they win fights the end up trading unequally. Their upgrades are straight up inferior (svts for example across the board have better dps than stgs)

2: t70 is ridicolous, the only saving grace is that sov early game is cucked and flamer HT forces zis, otherwise the matchup would almost be unplayabe with how stupid it gets.

3: the premium tanks. 85s are better than p4 in every single way, kv1s practically require panthers to cope, ans the fact that they deploy fleets of tanka with 5 shot hp qith the ability to self repair will inevitably lose you the lategame repair war.

Id add more but im phoneposting

Soviets are OP (But only in the mid-lategame)

wow just wow! as a 2v2 rank 1000 player. I faced the same exact issue. I had to go 5 men gren to counter sov player unless i see isu152 than elefant.

there is 1 thing you missed, is the su85 supporting the kv tanks. they simply sit back while kv tanks push through to clear my infantry positions

isu152 is op af against axis too! luckily 2v2 i may get a JT help

wow just wow! as a 2v2 rank 1000 player. I faced the same exact issue. I had to go 5 men gren to counter sov player unless i see isu152 than elefant.

there is 1 thing you missed, is the su85 supporting the kv tanks. they simply sit back while kv tanks push through to clear my infantry positions

isu152 is op af against axis too! luckily 2v2 i may get a JT help

you dont actually need 5 man gren to beat sov.... the fact that 4x conscripts technically cost 291mp since OST gets faust and nades for free means that SOV earlygame field presence will always be lower than the equivalent OKW/OST field presence... the answer here is just to wreck the soviet player hard enough earlygame...

and even at lategame OST is still strong... grens now have 0.8 DR at vet 3 soo theyre really good lategame... plus you get the brummbar to control soviet infantry... granted double zis barrage is probably a bit broken... but hey i think the zis needs a price and popcap increase too...

Realistically speaking you don't replace mainline with elites unless everything gets wiped (In which games your getting into 45+ min games where both sides will have 3+ tanks, meaning soviets would be favored anyway lol) I'd call volks pure early game inf, moment USF gets 2x bars they go to shit, moment svts&7men hit the field you're fucked. And brits will fuck you up anyway, with or without 5man sections.

So no, you can't replace 260 mp infantry with 320 (360? can't remember) Elites, especially since you'd need four of them to get the field presence needed to compete. Not to mention the vet 2 + upgrade, just isn't viable quite frankly.

I'm not saying you CAN do that, but it seems to be what's expected of OKW. Volks, as you say, get minced by Allied infantry (and vehicles) past early game. It feels like you're "supposed" to replace them with Obers, to be able to compete, but due to Obers late timing, cost, and the fact they need vet/LMG this isn't realistic.

Particularly as you sort of "need" three/four Volks before you tech up, you really don't have the population space to justify Obers, either. It's almost like you're encouraged to have your Volks die. I think this is part (On top of the other numerous benefits thereof) of the reason people really like Fusiliers. Early infantry that actually scales.


Honestly I don't really enjoy 1v1s, so this is mostly theoretical speculation, rather than coming from experience.

i cited some actual stats to the performance of units beyond your "my feelings" argument... your feelings are subjective and thus subject to biases... i gave some actual evidence to the numbers behind it and as to why i disagree with you... but instead of attempting to refute them you simply ignore them and continue on being delusional...

and no being a 1v1 player doesnt excuse jack shit... in a 1v1 the STG will always have a 30% dps boost to volks at range 20 regardless of game mode... it doesnt change whether its 1v1 2v2 or 4v4 hell 100v100... the STG does 30% dps at range 20 to volks period... that is IRREFUTABLE... that is FACTUAL... backup your claims with actual data before arguing because at this point your spouting out bullshit...

As i mentioned before, these numbers are very misleading. Volks and Cons both have differing damage profiles by default, so "a 30% boost" to Volks isnt comparable to a "30% boost" to cons. Particularly when you take Veterancy into account.

Volks also do have the weakest mainline Veterancy going. Middling RA and Accuracy boost, when other Mainlines have much higher numbers in one or the other category (or both). Infantry sections are an exception, with rather bad Vet, but they begin the game with much better performance, are universally upgraded with an equivalent 25% damage and RA boost (through the extra man), and later on with Brens on top of this.

As i mentioned before, these numbers are very misleading. Volks and Cons both have differing damage profiles by default, so "a 30% boost" to Volks isnt comparable to a "30% boost" to cons. Particularly when you take Veterancy into account.

volks have greater dps at most ranges during vet 0 however the opposite true for vet 3 vs vet5... vet 0 volks are pretty balanced overall though vet 5 may be arguable

Volks also do have the weakest mainline Veterancy going. Middling RA and Accuracy boost, when other Mainlines have much higher numbers in one or the other category (or both). Infantry sections are an exception, with rather bad Vet, but they begin the game with much better performance, are universally upgraded with an equivalent 25% damage and RA boost (through the extra man), and later on with Brens on top of this.

ehh rifles dont get that massive vet boost either... only cons get massive accuracy and RA bonuses while grens get a large DR boost and accuracy bonuses