Riflemen and M1919.

I'm not sure how I feel about Riflemen. They had been buffed a year ago with better close range dps which was badly needed but still have a few problems. This unit has no abilities that you don't have to pay extra to unlock, don't have to vet up to get, or don't have to pick a doctrine to use.

Double BARs are underwhelming. A BAR and an M1919 works pretty well but there's only two mediocre doctrines that have that. I wish more doctrines had the M1919, like Rifle Company if not just making it a standard upgrade for the faction, maybe after teching to Major.

As for Riflemen themselves the only thing that I think makes them seem not that great is that the whole faction relies on them at the start of the game because there are no other viable starting units for the faction and infantry like Riflemen are easy to counter at the start of the game. Ost has Osttruppen, Assault Grens or even MG + Pioneers into Panzergrenadiers that works without the need for standard Grenadiers. USF has no viable opening moves that don't rely on Riflemen. Kinda sucks.

Even though your post doesn't really have anything to do with the m1919 I'm going to base my reply on the title:

Imo m1919s should be non doc, it's odd for a part of a base be locked behind 2 doctrines.
I'd adjust the cost of the officers slightly to compensate but have captain or lieutenant unlock the BAR, the other unlock the Zook and major unlock the m1919
This guarantees access to these upgrades and stops inflating the price of rifles on the basis these are "optional" and balance with them being inevitable can be applied.

Can we see a replay of how you're using rifles? Because rifles are considered to be in a pretty good spot currently by a lot of high end players.

Riflemen are not meant to be replaced, they're a mainline, which is an issue currently with 4 man grens being replaced by ass grens, ostruppen, 5 man upgrade etc. It's the same issue USF had a year and a half ago when people would use anything instead of rifles including ass engineers and I&R paths.

Rifleman is fine. Giving them non doc M1919 wont change their roles.

Agreed, I want video proof of how rifles are underwhelming.

Even though your post doesn't really have anything to do with the m1919 I'm going to base my reply on the title:

Imo m1919s should be non doc, it's odd for a part of a base be locked behind 2 doctrines.
I'd adjust the cost of the officers slightly to compensate but have captain or lieutenant unlock the BAR, the other unlock the Zook and major unlock the m1919
This guarantees access to these upgrades and stops inflating the price of rifles on the basis these are "optional" and balance with them being inevitable can be applied.

I disagree with your first suggestion because the argument supporting isn't one from a balance standpoint. it's odd for a part of a base be locked behind 2 doctrines. Seems to imply the reason you think it should be non doc is because its an eyesore in the american pie base. I don't see this as a valid balance argument.


The second suggestion about locking different weapons behind the CPT and the LT has a different issue. If you keep them as expensive as they are, then it will be even more expensive to get weapons then it is now. If you make them cheaper- say 15 fuel each - you have the issue of de-incentivizing getting the sidetechs for the CPT and LT as not only are they just as expensive as unlocking the other branch, but you lose a weapon rack AND a free squad AND a weapon team as an opportunity cost.




Edit: Oh and I disagree with the OP on all points.

Agreed, I want video proof of how rifles are underwhelming.

yes codguy, please!

As a USF player, I would like to see why anyone thinks rifles are "underwhelming". Please, give us this replay.

#USF_ON_LIFE_SUPPORT

I'll throw my support behind a replay too. It'll be much easier to tell where your skewed view of Riflemen is coming from if we can see where you're going wrong.

How are Rifles under performing? They are in a really really good spot right now. The only fighting infantry for USF (not counting the officers) non-doc and they do the job splendidly. They negate the need for elite infantry due to the versatility with racks. Only downside is that if you lose them, you lose access to snare.

Short range they only lose to Sturmpios early on and long range to volks and sometimes grens but medium range they excel, placing them in a good spot (most engagements are medium range).

How are Rifles under performing? They are in a really really good spot right now. The only fighting infantry for USF (not counting the officers) non-doc and they do the job splendidly. They negate the need for elite infantry due to the versatility with racks. Only downside is that if you lose them, you lose access to snare.

Short range they only lose to Sturmpios early on and long range to volks and sometimes grens but medium range they excel, placing them in a good spot (most engagements are medium range).

Everything usf is too weak and everything axis is OP for cod guy. He thinks the elefant has too much AI and that the Jackson could use an HE shell. There is no reasoning.

As a USF player, I would like to see why anyone thinks rifles are "underwhelming". Please, give us this replay.

I did not say Riflemen were in and of themselves "underwelming", that was referring to double BARs for 120 munitions after a 15 fuel and 150 MP side tech. I did say it's unfortunate USF has to rely on Riflemen as they're the only valid starting unit available.

Imo m1919s should be non doc, it's odd for a part of a base be locked behind 2 doctrines.
I'd adjust the cost of the officers slightly to compensate but have captain or lieutenant unlock the BAR, the other unlock the Zook and major unlock the m1919
This guarantees access to these upgrades and stops inflating the price of rifles on the basis these are "optional" and balance with them being inevitable can be applied.

That does take away the main draw of 1919s though - how economic they are. They allow you to skip racks (manpower and fuel saved, lets you keep momentum for something like a stuart rush), and theyre generally more muni efficient than BARs. 2 1919s add much more power than 2 BARs in spite of the fact that they cost similar amounts.

Ost has a far superior infantry line up than what you have available to you as USF unless you're talking about Paratroopers. Paratroopers are good and are clearly supeior but only available with a couple doctrines. The Riflemen + BAR thing is not even close to being as good as Grens + Panzergrens.

OKW I'm not sure, Obers a the better infantry than Riflemen bit theu come much later. Panzergrens arrive way too soon.

I have a 7 game win streak with OKW and 6 game loss streak with USF. It's clear CODGUY's logic is infallible.

Imagine how bad somebody has to be at this game to say Riflemen are bad, thats like complaining about the Tiger before the nerfs

I think axis dps is more of an issue. Especially with the larger squad sizes, but most importantly their accuracy. It gets to the point where a squad can last maybe a second or two exposed to some axis units before needing to retreat. Compare that to what must be the worst, RE who can nearly be ignored in almost every situation without a rack weapon.

I remember in the first coh was out, I think one of the developers was asked about why the infantry miss so much or fire off so many rounds. They said something like the battles would be over too quickly otherwise, so they opted for this model where the infantry battles lasted. We've all play fps games, you know you don't need 25 rounds with a garand to pop some guys head in front of you.

The way I see it, most of the allied units are sticking to that model, while certain upgraded axis units are breaking it, mainly due to having extremely high accuracy at all ranges.

More evidence can commonly be found looking at the difference in flanks. I know many players like to say that axis needs high dps because allies have high squad counts. However, when you apply to this team weapons, it doesn't really hold up. A single axis squad will typically wipe out a team weapon it flanks, especially if it's something like a pgren, ober, falls(omg they are lol). the team weapons get that extra received accuracy, so they are super easy to hit. I think that was intended long ago to help allied sides benefit from smart play(as opposed to retarded blobbing), but with what's available now, it helped axis assure a squad wipe more. On top of that, many axis blob players can attack machine guns(of any faction) head on and their dps is so high that they will kill each man before he fires the machine gun.

I don't mind on some units, like obers, because if that mg34 gets dropped axis is going to be in for a world of pain. The stg44's don't get dropped. The falls don't drop a gun. So people can use those weapons more risky. I know allies have some too, like shocks and commandos, which if you let them get into close range with their smg you're toast, but they have to get in close.

Some of the axis accuracy values can be lowered without breaking the game.

I think axis dps is more of an issue. Especially with the larger squad sizes, but most importantly their accuracy. It gets to the point where a squad can last maybe a second or two exposed to some axis units before needing to retreat. Compare that to what must be the worst, RE who can nearly be ignored in almost every situation without a rack weapon.

I remember in the first coh was out, I think one of the developers was asked about why the infantry miss so much or fire off so many rounds. They said something like the battles would be over too quickly otherwise, so they opted for this model where the infantry battles lasted. We've all play fps games, you know you don't need 25 rounds with a garand to pop some guys head in front of you.

The way I see it, most of the allied units are sticking to that model, while certain upgraded axis units are breaking it, mainly due to having extremely high accuracy at all ranges.

More evidence can commonly be found looking at the difference in flanks. I know many players like to say that axis needs high dps because allies have high squad counts. However, when you apply to this team weapons, it doesn't really hold up. A single axis squad will typically wipe out a team weapon it flanks, especially if it's something like a pgren, ober, falls(omg they are lol). the team weapons get that extra received accuracy, so they are super easy to hit. I think that was intended long ago to help allied sides benefit from smart play(as opposed to retarded blobbing), but with what's available now, it helped axis assure a squad wipe more. On top of that, many axis blob players can attack machine guns(of any faction) head on and their dps is so high that they will kill each man before he fires the machine gun.

I don't mind on some units, like obers, because if that mg34 gets dropped axis is going to be in for a world of pain. The stg44's don't get dropped. The falls don't drop a gun. So people can use those weapons more risky. I know allies have some too, like shocks and commandos, which if you let them get into close range with their smg you're toast, but they have to get in close.

Some of the axis accuracy values can be lowered without breaking the game.

Weird how you talk about pgrens wiping squads but simultaneously talk about how shocks have to get close to do the same. I know pgs are better out to medium range but you aren't exactly sniping people at their most effective range.

I don't get it.

I think axis dps is more of an issue.

Some of the axis accuracy values can be lowered without breaking the game.

If Axis elite infantry were nerfed then Allied elite infantry would certainly need the same axe to befall them.

All elite infantry have ridiculous DPS. A single Thompson Paras/Rangers or Shocks beating 2 Axis squads is the norm, while Commandos need to ambush to pull that off.

Elite infantry need that superior cost-effectiveness because they usually have no snares/utility and come out much later versus already vetted and/or upgraded mainline infantry. They also have smaller windows of effectiveness because light vehicles are already hitting the field and medium vehicles will follow soon after.

The reason you think only Axis elite infantry have super-high dps is that you only play Allies/USF.