Panzer IV Command Tank Rework Idea

This is a personal issue I have with the Panzer IV Command tank and if it could happen, I would like to see it reworked to be less reliant on its one gimmick which has shifted multiple times and make the unit more valuable through other means.

For the TL;DW

-Make aura a timed ability that scales through veterancy in some form (exclude allies as needed)
-Give the command tank additional support utility so it's not reliant on its gimmick
-Smoke Shot; same as Cromwell
-Temporary Sight boosting ability or better stock sight
-Mark Vehicle for better accuracy/penetration(?)

-Adjust its veterancy to not be a clone of the standard Panzer IV

I'm not big on giving the Command tank significant firepower as that's what Ostwinds, Panzer IVs, and other combat-orientated tanks are for. Let the Command Tank take on the role as a better support unit with its abilities capable of turning the tide rather than the 75mm.

Anyways, what are your thoughts and opinions?

Really like the idea of a timed ability. And I don't think a received damage modifier should ever be shared between allies, especially not while it's a passive

I feel like a recon mode ala T70, that doesn't stack with scopes and with adjusted values, would be thematically fitting. Would also synergize with the paks that you normally get to overcome the fuel deficit.

Mark vehicle is a bad idea considering it comes in a doctrine with Elefant. Really should NOT even give this a thought to avoid what would be giga-cancer Elefant + mark target in one doctrine.

The Command P4 is not even bad as it is. Sure the veterancy should be adjusted to be more useful for it but that's about it.

Maybe just upgrade to P4.J？

Glad to see that C PzIV is considered for changes.

Here are some of my suggestions:

Entering the field.
Current requirement are simply too high. Oddly even Dozer/Panzer J has lower requirement. My suggestion would be to
either follow Panzer J design buildable form HQ we either T3 or T4 up
or
Call-in at CP 6 requiring PB 2

Aura.
Glad to see that my suggestion about scaling the aura with vet and having a active part is considered.
My suggestion thou would be that the aura is separate into 2 parts. A passive with lower impact that could include current damage reduction, received accuracy reduction, sight bonus, armor bonus other...

One could even allow a radio net type bonus.

An active part that could provide further bonuses on increase the one already existing ones.
The reasoning behind this is that if the unit simply has munition abilities it might become less attractive since it will become useful only by burning MU.

Veterancy.
Glad to see that my suggestion of tailor costuming veterancy to unit role is considered.
Imo the veterancy bonuses should be more about the aura and increasing the defensive abilities of the unit so it can survive the late battle field.

One would probably have also to look at the XP value of the unit.

Commander animation
Nice to see that my suggestion to put to use the commander animation is considered to have some use. A sight bonus or Reckon mode could be useful and one could even considered adding a barrage similar to OKW although imo that barrage is too strong and if one add it should be weaker.

Smoke Round
That would be a nice addition or one could add the Valentine type smoke.

Mark Vehicle
This could also work if it limited to receive accuracy and armor penalties.

Gun
Imo one should also look at the gun since it UP even compared with guns available to similar unit like KV-8 and Valentine which both have high close penetration values.

I do agree that the gun should not be "great" since the unit should be "support" oriented so I would suggest the following:
Gun now can fire HE explosive. In this mode the unit fires higher trajectory round in similar way to Stug-E. The range, AOE and projectile speed will need adjustments but this makes sense the units use the same gun.

Gun can not fire Hollow charge rounds. In this mode the unit use direct fire AT round. The round could have low penetration but have some deflection damage (40-80?) so that the unit can fire back at vehicles.

Mark vehicle is a bad idea considering it comes in a doctrine with Elefant. Really should NOT even give this a thought to avoid what would be giga-cancer Elefant + mark target in one doctrine.

The Command P4 is not even bad as it is. Sure the veterancy should be adjusted to be more useful for it but that's about it.

If the mark target provide accuracy/penetration penalties the Elephant would only benefit from higher accuracy.

In the end of the day one could simply removed it from the commander is the Combo proves to be OP.

Maybe just upgrade to P4.J？

Yes, this is exactly what the game needs more of - removing unique units.

Yes, this is exactly what the game needs more of - removing unique units.

Unique units need to be more useful，if not， it just waste commander slot，better be remove
And I’m not said remove it，just upgrade model to normal P4 or P4.J

Unique units need to be more useful，if not， it just waste commander slot，better be remove
And I’m not said remove it，just upgrade model to normal P4 or P4.J

Or you can do what Miragefla suggests and expand utility of the unit...

If you want to play generic RTS like C&C, play C&C.

I believe the current state of the 75mm on P4 command tank is obsolete. If we are to adjust the gun, an interesting idea would be something similar to StugE (with standard 40 range of course) or even a Sherman HE. However I agree with Miragefla that would overlap with all the AI vehicles around.

Thematically, I would like to see some abilities on the unit that fit a command vehicle:

-"Mark Target": The commander coordinates all efforts against the selected target, giving +5 range against the enemy vehicle to all nearby vehicles (allies not affected). Maybe exclude elefant.

-"Recon Overpass": The commander calls in 2 Luftwaffe recon planes for a single pass (not loiter) similar to the Royal Commando Regiment's recon part of the bombing run.

-"Coordinated Effort": The commander inspires a friendly vehicle with his leadership, pushing the crew to move/ fight harder. Timed ability, gives a small speed and/or reload/accuracy boost to a friendly vehicle. Useful for dives and flanking maneuvers.

-"Mortar Coverage": The commander coordinates with a nearby mortar battery for indirect support. Similar to Ostheer Artillery Officer

-"Protect the Commander": Friendly vehicles screen for their commander. While near friendly vehicles, command panzer has reduced received accuracy.

-"Surveillance Operations": The commander spots the battlefield for targets from a concealed position. The command vehicle gains stealth (20 range detection?) and a focused sight mode like SU85

-"Tactical Retreat": The commander fires two smoke shells in a rapid succession to screen for friendly vehicle retreat.

Or you can do what Miragefla suggests and expand utility of the unit...

If you want to play generic RTS like C&C, play C&C.

Whatever，buff itself or give more ability or more powerful aura I think all is fine，main problem is Commander P4 now need buff

I'd go for support abilities rather than raw power. All OP ideas are very good. I'd add simply more of them. It could earn utility through upgrades - scopes, mg gunner, arty officer - the player should choose what they want and all of them should be possible on command tank. It could also be used to lock down territories and give some buffs to all units in the locked friendly sector, alternatively it could lock territories and generate some resources.

Thanks for bringing attention to this unit Miragefla.

I really like the idea of vet 1 smoke instead of combat blitz, as well as improved sight range by default at vet 2. The smoke could even come in the form of call-in mortar cover like on the artillery field officer. However I don't agree with further changes to the aura, since it's currently in a pretty good spot.

At present the aura provides good defensive stats that are not too overbearing, as well as not being too much of a micro tax. A timed aura would probably be a significant nerf, especially considering how useful it currently is against auto-barrage indirect fire like mortars, which will not kill buffed models even with direct hits.

I also think the combat stats of the vehicle are too good to justify giving it lots of strong abilities. The tank gun profile is very useful against infantry, especially when hulled down as a backline defensive unit.

I'd just give it its old aura back but exclude allies from the effects. The problem is power, not design.

Adding complexity to the aura mechanics isn't worthwhile when all that complexity is concealed from the player. The Command Panther is not a model to follow: it's barely ever used as a command vehicle because barely anyone understands what it does.

Single, straightforward and simple effects like the CP4's 20% damage reduction are by far and away the best way to do auras in a game like this.

- Extra sight and armor skirts could work as a ammo upgrades (similar to coh1).
- smoke shot like in cromwell
- easier access - less CPs
- vet2 or vet3 increase tank penetration
- extra ability
- easier to vet

Aura itself even stronger isn't a very tempting ability to make it work. Look at Command Tiger or Inspiration in KV-8/KV-2. No1 uses it even though it provides a decent bust.

Extra Sight need to be look at first becouse it can colide with scope upgrade. Similar situation is with smoke. Command P4 is in commanders that provides tank smoke defensive.

The Command P4 is not even bad as it is. Sure the veterancy should be adjusted to be more useful for it but that's about it.

Don't think OP said it's bad once. He said it relies on a gimmick, which is true. It's not bad at all, if anything it can be too strong in team games

Sharing a received damage modifier with your teammates is very cheesy, especially one that encourages you to blob. Give it other utility and restrict bonuses to yourself. Or change the bonuses and allow sharing

I don't play that much 1v1 but I can't remember ever seeing it there. I pretty much only see it in team games, I don't think it's worth getting in 1v1 but could be wrong

If give more ability,maybe……
can share EXP，tech request change to need T3 or P3
1 Free smoke barrage same as officer
2 have default panzer commander officer upgrade same as OKW（45~50 sight and can call barrage support）
Aura still be passive,but have more vet buff
Vet 1, blitzkrieg replace by some ability like coh1 PE P4，can not move but can reload more quickly
Vet 2，get armor skirt，+10%speed buff to aura
Vet 3，20% reload/CD buff to aura

I'd just give it its old aura back but exclude allies from the effects. The problem is power, not design.

Adding complexity to the aura mechanics isn't worthwhile when all that complexity is concealed from the player. The Command Panther is not a model to follow: it's barely ever used as a command vehicle because barely anyone understands what it does.

Single, straightforward and simple effects like the CP4's 20% damage reduction are by far and away the best way to do auras in a game like this.

The reason the Command Panther is not used as Command vehicle i]s because it very good on its own.

C Panzer on the other hand is not good on its own. With a cost similar to Ostwind it comes later with worse AI and laughable AT.

Having a unit become better at role with veterancy makes sense. Else you simply have a "through away tank"

arti call in would be a good new ability