+240 MP Patch

Hey guys, been trying to gather my thoughts on how I feel about the +240 starting manpower for each faction that has been revealed.

My first impression is that this is a larger buff to Soviets since they are able to get out T1 or T2 very quickly, while not losing out on map control - but German tech is still delayed by needing fuel. Fighting maxim spam was very difficult with tier 1 but you could get a flame HT pretty quickly after the maxims really started pressuring you. This won't be the case so much now, but I guess the consolation is that Germans can get a pretty quick sniper to counter maxims.

Ultimately, probably a good change and should do nicely to shake up the early game and provide for more variation in builds. I like it.

My primary concern... Soviet Industry doctrine. The weakest point of this doctrine was the lack of early infantry (and really infantry at all points in the game). Only having three conscripts out and then going into T-70s at least allowed the chance of Germans to have stronger map control early on, reduced the rate at which Soviets could re-capture the map, and lowered the amount of squads with the potential to flank/dislodge PaKs. This +240 manpower directly increases all of these things. It is also, in a way, an increase of more than 240 manpower to Soviet Industry since their MP income is reduced by choosing the doctrine.

Overall, I like the change and I like the idea behind the change, but I really feel like this is going to push Soviet Industry beyond the point of beatability (if that's a word?). This commander was already difficult enough to deal with, but now it will be more difficult to deal with AND even harder to pick out based on the units that are revealed early on in the match. Very worried about this in combination with Sov Industry - thoughts?

Its 500MP total for both at start.

Not +240.

Even better... so it is +250 for Soviet but only +210 for Germans? =/

If the soviet gets t2 right of the bat you can now safely built a sniper as germans with the increased MP

Really great change! Was waiting for this to hit the main client, as I'd heard rumors about it before. It should open up more room for combined arms starts.

Really great change! Was waiting for this to hit the main client, as I'd heard rumors about it before. It should open up more room for combined arms starts.

Yeah, I agree that it does open a lot of doors - but am I the only one worried about the effect it is going to have on Soviet Industry? Seems like it would make it even more difficult to counter.

Yeah, I agree that it does open a lot of doors - but am I the only one worried about the effect it is going to have on Soviet Industry? Seems like it would make it even more difficult to counter.

It's possible, but we'll have to wait and see. On the other hand, getting a couple of Paks out with supporting infantry is not as big of a problem.

If the soviet gets t2 right of the bat you can now safely built a sniper as germans with the increased MP

This.

And if you have Elite Troops Doc you can start mowing down soviet inf with a vet 2 sniper right off the bat.

The MP increase might also translate to an earlier Pak and Pgrens for Ost, since both are very MP heavy. I do agree that the uneven increase (+250 ger, +210 sov) seems out of place, considering soviets already start with a hefty fuel bonus.

The MP increase might also translate to an earlier Pak and Pgrens for Ost, since both are very MP heavy. I do agree that the uneven increase (+250 ger, +210 sov) seems out of place, considering soviets already start with a hefty fuel bonus.

A "quicker" Pgren squad or PaK comes at an opportunity cost though. Without getting into too much of the actual math since it would be too complicated based on upkeep and all that let's put it this way:

A soviet player was already able to get out a 5-6 minute T-70 WITHOUT the increased manpower bonus. These T-70s will either come more quickly (pick doctrine right away for extra fuel) OR they will come at the same time, but with an extra conscript squad on the field. If, as the German player, you are holding your new "extra" manpower back to save for Pgrens or a PaK it means you're having to fight that 4th conscript squad with the same exact number of grens you had during this patch (3 or 4). If you do not save that "extra" manpower for a PaK or Pgrens and instead invest it on... well... grens since they're the only tier 1 unit that isn't completely useless against Soviet Industry you now have higher upkeep AND a 5th gren squad which frankly... probably won't help you much. So basically, this allows the Soviet Industry player to capture, retain, and pressure more of the map while keep the same T-70 timing OR pushing that timing to what is literally uncounterable. If you're completely unable to tech to tier 2 AND get schrecks out before the T-70 hits, you're pretty royally screwed (and let's face it 1 PaK without schrecks around isn't going to do jack to a T-70).

Either way it feels like a lose/lose for Germans, specifically when it comes to fighting against Soviet Industry. And this didn't even get into how much more difficult it will potentially be to even identify the fact that you're playing against Sov Industry, which is a very crucial part of countering it.

I wonder if alternately the Osteer player can invest into a quick fuel OP. The 200 manpower investment will suck for the first 4 minutes (50mp*4 minutes = 200mp over 4 minutes lead for Soviets) but will remove a large chunk of the fuel advantage later into the game all the while maintaining the manpower advantage.

And 1 PaK with some grens for faust isn't the end of the world, even if the shreks aren't available.

But hey, why not just pay2win some vet2 for the pak and crew shock that t70?

Fuel node would get hunted down quickly by the T-70. =/

It makes the game feel really Arcade-like for me. Coh was always about the slow start, the silence before the storm. Now everybody has an army way too quickly.

It makes the game stale and boring. Relic showing some seriously bad decisionmaking lately. They really dont understand their own franchise at all.

Yes I always imagined the beginning of the game as small skirmishes between scouting units. Trying to position themselves well before the main body arrived. Then it turning into an all out slugfest for some unknown town or road. But now it just seems with the mp bonus it is getting farther and farther away about what coh combat is about. I must digress however and wait until I try it. Hopefully it will just change the meta for the better.

Did this come out ?

It is in the change log on companyofheroes.com for today. I imagine it is out.

I posted another thread about this. Basically a very nice interesting change but it's a substantial buff to all the 0cp ability commanders.

Hence, you will actually have *more* assault grens than conscripts for the first few minutes of the game, still more Ostruppen than you will currently have, the manpower cost of an early vet will be less important, and Soviet Industry can probably get its T-70 even faster.

I'm fully in favour of it and hoping the 0cp commanders will get individual fixes, whether in moving some of their abilities back to 1 or 2 CPs, or in introducing a proper cooldown to Ostruppen and Assault Grenadiers.

I also think it's a bad move. Especially doing this right after such a big and controversial balance update. The balance was delicate enough pre-Turning Point, now it's in shambles as far as new commanders are concerned, but this could potentially manhandle it to the point Dawn of War looks balanced in comparison.

Not to mention that, as CieZ said, it benefits Soviet industry too much, and that doctrine is stupid enough as it is.

Man, if this keeps up, I'm going to have to stop playing until they get their shit together. That expansion for X-Com is starting to look more tempting by the day...

I also think it's a bad move. Especially doing this right after such a big and controversial balance update. The balance was delicate enough pre-Turning Point, now it's in shambles as far as new commanders are concerned, but this could potentially manhandle it to the point Dawn of War looks balanced in comparison.

Not to mention that, as CieZ said, it benefits Soviet industry too much, and that doctrine is stupid enough as it is.

Man, if this keeps up, I'm going to have to stop playing until they get their shit together. That expansion for X-Com is starting to look more tempting by the day...

Mine's unlocking at midnight. Genuinely so excited.

It is a bad idea. It'll only make the game more "funky" and more difficult to balance.

It will enhance any unforseen imbalances with 0CP commanders and make cheesy starts more difficult to punish. This game is in dire need of a metagame developed by players, not additional "lol let's try this" DLCs.

But I am getting tired. I'm beyond caring, because this New Relic has a very different idea about what CoH2 should be, than anyone who loved vCoH. While the patches speak one language, the commanders speak another - and they are simply not compatible.

Unless Relic decides to take away a wealth of commanders, I can't for the life of me see how this game can ever be made competitive. Everything CoH2.org is working for has become an impossible dream by now.

The work of Seb and SNF is not only in vain, but being converted into $$ for Relic, making fools of this dream and community.

My condolences.