Pioneers after early game

It can be set up by type of units. This is the case for Halftrack and officers.

5% mortars/indirect fire
10% HMGs
50% infantry
0% anything else

If i had to follow the same diagram for EFA engineers only (SP doesn't struggle vetting and USF/UKF can equip weapons, specially AT ones)

5% vehicles
10% mortars/indirect fire
50% HMGs
0% anything else including infantry

or alternative

5% vehicles
10% support weapons (not including AT guns)
0% anything else

You don't want to provide shared vet with infantry, cause then you offset the balance during the early game.
Engineers and support weapons go hand in hand. I don't think HMG provide enough vet on their own (due to how suppression mechanic works) and neither are indirect fire units able to provide enough vet early on to suddenly make vet 3 engineers.
The vehicle is purposely low due to them dealing high dmg against high value units.

To be fully honest - the discrepancy between the cost, utility and combat performance is too big between pios and, say, sappers or even echelons+crew combo. I don't think veterancy is crucial here. Of course, the vet requirements should be lowered for pios as they are unjustly higher than other similar engies.

However, something more must be done to make them more comparable to sappers (210manpower for 5 men squad lategame) or echelons that are more useful with crews, or finally comparing them to much cheaper cons. The problem is not vet that is most striking. The real problem is that when you need to replace them you lose infantry war even more as you need to invest 200manpower to repurchase pios while USF will invest the same amount into another tank or a combat infantry unit, Soviets will buy their CEs more cheaply and UKF will just get much more raw power for almost the same cost. This is the biggest issue. There are many doctrine repair options for Sov or UKF while ost needs to rely on relatively expensive pios. I really believe that the solutions I suggested above should be introduced together with changed vet.

To be fully honest - the discrepancy between the cost, utility and combat performance is too big between pios and, say, sappers or even echelons+crew combo. I don't think veterancy is crucial here. Of course, the vet requirements should be lowered for pios as they are unjustly higher than other similar engies.

However, something more must be done to make them more comparable to sappers (210manpower for 5 men squad lategame) or echelons that are more useful with crews, or finally comparing them to much cheaper cons. The problem is not vet that is most striking. The real problem is that when you need to replace them you lose infantry war even more as you need to invest 200manpower to repurchase pios while USF will invest the same amount into another tank or a combat infantry unit, Soviets will buy their CEs more cheaply and UKF will just get much more raw power for almost the same cost. This is the biggest issue. There are many doctrine repair options for Sov or UKF while ost needs to rely on relatively expensive pios. I really believe that the solutions I suggested above should be introduced together with changed vet.

The shared vet should be implemented first. Then the vet requirements can be looked at. Baby steps are better then the old tested triple buffs and nerfs of old.

All the other stuff you crusade on about for pio,s are not needed. You get the most utility decent to good cqc for a decent price.

You get the most utility decent to good cqc for a decent price.

You do not get the "most" utility, and if the CQC is decent, then royal engineers are due for a massive nerf.
I've avoided comparing them since I've wanted stick to EFA matchups, but when you take pios and RE and put them side by side you should instantly recognise that pios are either cost inefficient or that RE are too strong for cost.

They have nearly identical weapon profiles, but RE start out with 0.9 RA while pios are 1.0.
Pios get better offensive vet, but RE get 5th man upgrade which gives them a rough equivalent to pio vet damage increase while simultaneously increasing their durability.
RE can snare to make up for IS not having them, but in exchange IS can be upgraded with pyrotechnics which let's them spot like pios -and arguably do a better job of it.
RE vet reduces their reinforcement cost which takes a squad that is already very durable (5 man, 0.59 RA with vet) and makes them even more cost effective. And this isnt even getting into weapon upgrades.
Those 200mp pios with 25mp reinforce arent looking so good compared to 210 RE with 23mp(at vet 3) reinforce.


Now in my opinion RE may be slightly on the strong side, but not by that much. They fulfill the roles they need to adequately, and arent oppressive despite how strong on paper they can get. It's just that pios are on the weak side.

You do not get the "most" utility, and if the CQC is decent, then royal engineers are due for a massive nerf.
I've avoided comparing them since I've wanted stick to EFA matchups, but when you take pios and RE and put them side by side you should instantly recognise that pios are either cost inefficient or that RE are too strong for cost.

They have nearly identical weapon profiles, but RE start out with 0.9 RA while pios are 1.0.
Pios get better offensive vet, but RE get 5th man upgrade which gives them a rough equivalent to pio vet damage increase while simultaneously increasing their durability.
RE can snare to make up for IS not having them, but in exchange IS can be upgraded with pyrotechnics which let's them spot like pios -and arguably do a better job of it.
RE vet reduces their reinforcement cost which takes a squad that is already very durable (5 man, 0.59 RA with vet) and makes them even more cost effective. And this isnt even getting into weapon upgrades.
Those 200mp pios with 25mp reinforce arent looking so good compared to 210 RE with 23mp(at vet 3) reinforce.


Now in my opinion RE may be slightly on the strong side, but not by that much. They fulfill the roles they need to adequately, and arent oppressive despite how strong on paper they can get. It's just that pios are on the weak side.

Exactly - not much to add here. Logical and to the point started by the thread createor. Thank You.
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What if OST T4 building provides vet1 to all squads. Like what wermacht had in CoH1 as vet techs.

Coupled with that, pio vet1 could be changed to +10% dmg reduction. Med kids are not worth it.

Two birds w/ one stone. A worthy T4 buff+Pio late game presence

Sounds good.

You do not get the "most" utility, and if the CQC is decent, then royal engineers are due for a massive nerf.
I've avoided comparing them since I've wanted stick to EFA matchups, but when you take pios and RE and put them side by side you should instantly recognise that pios are either cost inefficient or that RE are too strong for cost.

They have nearly identical weapon profiles, but RE start out with 0.9 RA while pios are 1.0.
Pios get better offensive vet, but RE get 5th man upgrade which gives them a rough equivalent to pio vet damage increase while simultaneously increasing their durability.
RE can snare to make up for IS not having them, but in exchange IS can be upgraded with pyrotechnics which let's them spot like pios -and arguably do a better job of it.
RE vet reduces their reinforcement cost which takes a squad that is already very durable (5 man, 0.59 RA with vet) and makes them even more cost effective. And this isnt even getting into weapon upgrades.
Those 200mp pios with 25mp reinforce arent looking so good compared to 210 RE with 23mp(at vet 3) reinforce.


Now in my opinion RE may be slightly on the strong side, but not by that much. They fulfill the roles they need to adequately, and arent oppressive despite how strong on paper they can get. It's just that pios are on the weak side.

I agree that wfa armies are a different beast all together and comparing them to efa they makes efa look bad.

But people only look at the direct counterparts. And dont see faction and tech composition differences.

Both usf and ukf dont have sturm pgrens or obers or like ost a very good stopping power mg in t0. And you cant expect rifles and tommies to be good at everthing and provide everything. Sappers and rear echelon do and must help in this regard.
This imo makes sappers rear echelons mostly fine. You do need to tech bolster (get to vet 3) nades racks and buy weapons to have them at their peak combat wise.

Tommies need to buy their extra sight range. Go nack to 280 mp. But their mobile on the move blob heal needs a nerf just as the okw on the move blob heal should.

Pio have units that provide close range dps much better then they do. The get a t0 mg with the best inf control power for its price and timing. Pio,s dont need to be excelent fighters because of this. They got that extra sight to better sync with their team weapons wich ost relies on more then other factions. They can also heal them if need be.

So imo still all pio,s need is shared vet and this goes for ce,s as well.

....

Not saying their stats need buffing. I am saying their price to performance is off.

Not saying their stats need buffing. I am saying their price to performance is off.

Ok i read that wrong. My bad.
But people still mostly or even only look at combat potential. That is not the whole or even a primary job off engies.

Ok i read that wrong. My bad.
But people still mostly or even only look at combat potential. That is not the whole or even a primary job off engies.

Exactly. "People" you quote here are wrong in this case. Pios primary role lategame is repair. Ost has, in general, only pios to repair stuff. The factions ost faces have free crews (plus echelons) - USF, cheaper engineers - Soviets, more durable engineers - UKF. On top of that Soviets and UKF have many doctrine repair options - UKF with every second doctrine and Soviets have cons repair, crew repairs, repair stations. USF crews can crit repair. All the above makes ost pios much less cost effective and their repairs needing more manpower. The whole lategame manpower war becomes imbalanced if pios have to be purchased to speed repairs, sweep for mines or when they are lost. At the same time allies don't need to invest that much manpower into supporting their vehicles and can use this manpower to buy frontline units.

Exactly. "People" you quote here are wrong in this case. Pios primary role lategame is repair. Ost has, in general, only pios to repair stuff. The factions ost faces have free crews (plus echelons) - USF, cheaper engineers - Soviets, more durable engineers - UKF. On top of that Soviets and UKF have many doctrine repair options - UKF with every second doctrine and Soviets have cons repair, crew repairs, repair stations. USF crews can crit repair. All the above makes ost pios much less cost effective and their repairs needing more manpower. The whole lategame manpower war becomes imbalanced if pios have to be purchased to speed repairs, sweep for mines or when they are lost. At the same time allies don't need to invest that much manpower into supporting their vehicles and can use this manpower to buy frontline units.

Ost pio's helping anything nearby by just standing there. Them being able to heal makes up for that suposed mp disparety.
They do far more then just repairing, that people choose not to use them otherwise is their mistake, and not a balance issue.

You first balance the faction without doctrines. Doctrines give you extra options.

You miss the fact that in soviets case their stock vehicles bounce almost nothing and dont have big hp pools. So having some doctrinal repair options makes sense.
For ost loosing tanks is more punishing so they get instant smoke to avoid damage all together on all their mostly more durable vehicles in lots of doctrines.
Ost dont get much repair options but they get options to avoid it. Next to bouncing more then sov and usf already.

So imo still no mp problem since ost dont need to replace as many tanks as say soviets.

pio need more repair speed vet2
Ost tanks keep repairing because getting sniped too easily