Unbalanced pay commanders

This is an interesting question. Why is it personal? I do feel it is personal. I feel cheated and continually lied to. Let me explain:

With one hand they are balancing the game with the patches (bar the 500MP patch), with the other hand they destroy balance with the commanders.

The patches speak to the competitive element of the CoH franchise. They are saying "Look, we care about balance".
The Commanders speak to the more casual players, saying "Look, we are adding content, keeping it fresh".

The thing is of course, you can't please both parties this way. The net sum of the updates is continual non-balance, but the patches are an attempt at appeasing the competitive element.
However, this is a lie. They are cheating. They keep paying lip-service to the CoH2.org creators and community, because we add value by perpetuating the lie that this is also a game with a competitive potential.

The sad effect is that this entire site is now based on a dream that will never happen. Sure, we can have tournaments with veto'd commanders, but this will not reflect the automatch reality. This game will never have a metagme, a 12azor, DrHorse or Seb - hell, we might as well be a modding community.

So yeah; Fuck you, Relic - but well played.

+1

I feel the same.

This is an interesting question. Why is it personal? I do feel it is personal. I feel cheated and continually lied to. Let me explain:

With one hand they are balancing the game with the patches (bar the 500MP patch), with the other hand they destroy balance with the commanders.

The patches speak to the competitive element of the CoH franchise. They are saying "Look, we care about balance".
The Commanders speak to the more casual players, saying "Look, we are adding content, keeping it fresh".

The thing is of course, you can't please both parties this way. The net sum of the updates is continual non-balance, but the patches are an attempt at appeasing the competitive element.
However, this is a lie. They are cheating. They keep paying lip-service to the CoH2.org creators and community, because we add value by perpetuating the lie that this is also a game with a competitive potential.

The sad effect is that this entire site is now based on a dream that will never happen. Sure, we can have tournaments with veto'd commanders, but this will not reflect the automatch reality. This game will never have a metagme, a 12azor, DrHorse or Seb - hell, we might as well be a modding community.

So yeah; Fuck you, Relic - but well played.

Not much to add to that. The game has taken one hell of a nosedive since Turning Point (meaningful name much?). What good balance changes were made are so completely overshadowed by pay to win bullshit that the game becomes unplayable as soon as anyone has them.

I mean, it's obvious this wasn't beta-tested in the slightest. Industry is the absolute worst offender, but instant vet 2 PGrens, P4s and the tiger ace are also very noob-tastic. The game has gone from ressembling the tug-of-war design of vCOH to devolving into a stupid spamfest where tanks rule the day at the 10th minute, or even earlier. Having balance issues at launch is fully understandable, and Relic has been fairly good with the patches even, but on the other hand adding such game-breaking idiocy pretty much twarts their entire effort. I have a feeling the balance department and whatever incompetent designed those commanders don't speak to each other much.

What good balance changes were made are so completely overshadowed by pay to win bullshit that the game becomes unplayable as soon as anyone has them.

This opinion originates from some very different points from what I am making, and I do not feel as you do. Calling the problem as P2W is a mistake, you'll "stay in the matrix".

I mean, it's obvious this wasn't beta-tested in the slightest. [...] I have a feeling the balance department and whatever incompetent designed those commanders don't speak to each other much.

I think it was tested plenty, but in a very fuzzy environment with lots of other changes. The problem is not current imbalances, but a business-model that will never allow for balance and metagame. A business model that will not allow for CoH2.org.

4-5 minute T70 sounds almost usable.

Relic kinda reminds me of Blizzard.

I couldnt believe my eyes when I blindly bought Diablo 3 thinking it would be awesome once again.

Money has to big a say in the gaming world lately.

games are getting more expensive to make, resulting in requiring huge amounts of investments, in turn, there's huge pressure to produce high returns.

you cant really blame them, thats how investment works, you wouldnt lend someone a large amount of cash/credit without expecting a certain required rate of return and if relic don't make money now, they probably would have difficulty in raising funds next time to develop another title.

then again, its us customers who will be getting the short end of the stick.

games are getting more expensive to make, resulting in requiring huge amounts of investments, in turn, there's huge pressure to produce high returns.

you cant really blame them, thats how investment works, you wouldnt lend someone a large amount of cash/credit without expecting a certain required rate of return and if relic don't make money now, they probably would have difficulty in raising funds next time to develop another title.

then again, its us customers who will be getting the short end of the stick.

i guess a game that has lots of money invested in it needs to have a huge ammount of sales as well , to me this whole dlc mania is done so that sega can squeeze out of us all money they can so that they fix the temporary financial imbalance from coh2 not selling as much as they wanted and relic growing in size and they new it would be like that from the first moment they saw the game , they are a multinational company not the corner store after all .

Totally agree! +100

games are getting more expensive to make, resulting in requiring huge amounts of investments, in turn, there's huge pressure to produce high returns.

you cant really blame them, thats how investment works, you wouldnt lend someone a large amount of cash/credit without expecting a certain required rate of return and if relic don't make money now, they probably would have difficulty in raising funds next time to develop another title.

then again, its us customers who will be getting the short end of the stick.

Even if this is partially true, there are really few games which can cost up to 150 euro after only 5 months to get all its content. Anyway this is the market so you have freedom to buy what you want and is not the real issue which a lot of people are pointing out. However if Relic keeps the habit to release new commanders which throw out of the window the balance just to get an easy money grab this is something which can ruin the game on the long run and Relic games reputation.

Well reading hours of rants, me being one of them, its clear that a lot is against DLC, and some for - this is the exact reason why custom lobbies are required in order for you the consumer to decide, not relic, what kind of game you want to play or how you want to support the game - either by playing automatch and not give a shit about DLC, or having your own game where you can choose not to support DLC but still keeping the active player base healthy

Anyway, this game will be sold for 15 € including all commanders, skins and DLCs the very moment Sega/Relic consider that they won't get more profit from it.


It's just a question of patience.

As an RGD coder in vCoH (CoH 1) these new DLCs are a slap in the face. I could come up with better and more balanced doctrines in ~5 minutes; hell, I HAVE come up with better doctrines (soon to be released) for my own vCoH mod. This crap isn't fun to play, and it's countering OP with OP--same crap that didn't work in CoHO--oh derp, Rifleman camo? Well, let's have your Volksgrenadiers give you resources when they die--in fact, you gain resources (and especially fuel) by simply suiciding volks.

Arcadey (more than vCoH) gameplay, poor map design (every point generates resources, which means it's largely impossible to come back from getting pushed into your base by some gimmick strat right out of the gate), poor teching design for the Soviets (only mitigated by the new Defensive commander for them--part of the reason I swear by it, two conscripts and a dushka is actually useful, and you get that lovely 120mm mortar without having to tech to T2--you can splat down a Spec. Rifle Command and skip to T-34s, keeping up with the horde of ONLYUSEmeVET3ARMY 'tards/bunker-rushers with Opel Blitz' and Tigers out the arse), these new DLCs that absolutely break balance, and most of all the insistence to disallow modding in order to SELL this absolutely broken crap, absolutely turns this game off for me.

That being said, it's great fun to take a dump in some wallet-warrior's cornflakes with a well-executed Conscript flank, CoH1 style. Herp, what MG42 bruv?

I know that, thats one of the reasons why I don't know if I should call this doctrine "OP" or just "retarded" Or maybe both words would fit?

Let's not be juvenile and look at it rationally. The new commanders can be beaten with free commanders.

If he's going soviet industry place Teller mines in obvious places and get an early Pak. He also won't have the manpower to hold the map. Extend your manpower advantage with anti-infantry tactics. If you wipe a squad place down a single fuel cache.

With the Elite Infantry commander, he sets his tech back substantially because of the 20 fuel cost of vetting. He also opens himself up to vulnerability to anti-infantry tactics. There is no more super-unit vet anymore because of the recent changes. If he's vetted his infantry, get out a sniper or MG and rush Tier 3. You will be so far ahead of him in fuel that he might not be able to recover.

the buying vet individually thing is a waste early in the game, trying to vet your army through fuel and mp is expensive and leaves you massively behind in tech and units. With the exception of vet pgs or a tank for the purpose of blitzing an su, using it other than sparingly gives you few units with pretty stars at the cost of battlefield presence. At the end of the game that changes,if your floating resources anyway may as well vet, but early game I haven't found it useful as everyone is claiming

the buying vet individually thing is a waste early in the game, trying to vet your army through fuel and mp is expensive and leaves you massively behind in tech and units. With the exception of vet pgs or a tank for the purpose of blitzing an su, using it other than sparingly gives you few units with pretty stars at the cost of battlefield presence. At the end of the game that changes,if your floating resources anyway may as well vet, but early game I haven't found it useful as everyone is claiming

Thats true. Played two games versus good germans players and i won. In early games were hard to deal with grens 3 vet+mg, but i won, because i had fuel advantage.

People are definatly getting good at countering Industry now, sometimes 2 fast upgunned scout cars, sometimes pak, shrek and then P4.

Industry really is fairly all or nothing, in that you are 100% locked into armour. So when someone surrvives into the mid game, they will have so much AT, and your inf is likely really suffering as well, that you get pushed back quite a bit.

I had a really cool game where I was pushed right back, called a KV2 and deployed it in my base then slowly pushed out, it did end in a loss when he rushed paks and P4s onto me, but it was great fun using the KV2. (I feel its only really really good vs mass inf, or stationary defensive position).

Anyway, totally counterable, and I probably have more fun using a normal doctrine.

I guess its probably more of a team doctrine really.

the buying vet individually thing is a waste early in the game, trying to vet your army through fuel and mp is expensive and leaves you massively behind in tech and units. With the exception of vet pgs or a tank for the purpose of blitzing an su, using it other than sparingly gives you few units with pretty stars at the cost of battlefield presence. At the end of the game that changes,if your floating resources anyway may as well vet, but early game I haven't found it useful as everyone is claiming

I don't think that has ever been the issue, the problem comes mid to late game and the ability if winning to replace vet units instantly and thus reducing penalty and gain that normally happens.

people should start realising that nothing is for free and regarding the $/hour gaming is apparently cheap.

Why should the $/hour determine the price of a product? Most things that cost far more than they should are because you are paying for a service (e.g. cinema), expertise (e.g. medical treament), geographical monopoly (e.g. restaurant @ Ski Resort), or just to own the top-of-the-line product (e.g. Rolex, Mercedes, etc). Video games fit none of those criteria.

Think about like this: it costs $200-400 to get a Kayak that can be used for hundreds or thousands of hours. Why is it that cheap? Because apparently that is how much it costs to pull a suitable profit after crafting a thick piece of plastic/fiberglass. The manufacturer doesn't give a shit if you are Kayaking every single day or maybe 5 hours per year, he wants to keep the price high enough to make a profit but low enough to be competitive. So what now, should the government step in and start taxing you every time you drop in the river just because someone should be getting paid every time you are enjoying yourself?

DLCs shouldn't destroy the gaming experience for those who doesn't buy them.

And that is what new commanders are doing.

Altho you are right that the game gets "balanced" for 1v1s, it is my personal feeling that all the new stuff they are adding is hurting 1v1s more than they balance changes are improving it. On top of that all this new content they are releasing (except for world builder and chat) are the opposite of what I think is good for competitive games.

They are basically adding new commanders --> more imbalance. Then they are trying to fix the balance --> more balance. And right after they are adding more commanders again (and soemtimes other questionable things get changed as well) just to fuck everything up again. That's why it looks like they are just trying to please the broader mass of players (which are the players that play team games more or less non-competitve - no tourneys and stuff) by adding "cool new stuff".

Even if balance does not matter too much, there is so much other questionable stuff. They are just focusing on making more money by adding more content, instead of seriously improving core things that are majorly flawed.

Eventhough they went in a good direction with this patch, I still don't think they realized what the major flaws are.

They didn't go in the right direction with this game period. lots of 4v4 (casuals) left the game long time ago.
A lot of 1v1 players left because of balance/RNG/hero units and generally this game only having the same name as COH and visually looks similar.

I think I am done playing anyway. Weather you play 1v1 or 4v4, its not what i signed up for. (also I get the feeling from community that I won't be the only one calling it quits, at lest for a prolonged period)
RTS game should be about strategy not about RNG luck and 'hero units'

This is an interesting question. Why is it personal? I do feel it is personal. I feel cheated and continually lied to. Let me explain:

With one hand they are balancing the game with the patches (bar the 500MP patch), with the other hand they destroy balance with the commanders.

The patches speak to the competitive element of the CoH franchise. They are saying "Look, we care about balance".
The Commanders speak to the more casual players, saying "Look, we are adding content, keeping it fresh".

The thing is of course, you can't please both parties this way. The net sum of the updates is continual non-balance, but the patches are an attempt at appeasing the competitive element.
However, this is a lie. They are cheating. They keep paying lip-service to the CoH2.org creators and community, because we add value by perpetuating the lie that this is also a game with a competitive potential.

The sad effect is that this entire site is now based on a dream that will never happen. Sure, we can have tournaments with veto'd commanders, but this will not reflect the automatch reality. This game will never have a metagme, a 12azor, DrHorse or Seb - hell, we might as well be a modding community.

So yeah; Fuck you, Relic - but well played.

+1 You nailed it.

To me, the Turning Point update is a solid confirmation that Relic isn't building a competitive multiplayer game. Which is disappointing to say the least considering how much potential this game could have had.

I don't think even observer mode would save this. Something more radical has to be done. The scariest thing is that the next Relic game will probably use the same businessmodel.