Poll: USF TD suggestion

This is a free poll. Feel free to vote and disagree. I dont want anyone challenging any other participant of knowing better the faction.

Since there is quite a debate for lategame TD, lots of suggestions are being made and lots of them might not receive a fair judgement. This is a new suggestion i came up with, using some ideas said in these forums.

I know at least one person that will say "Dont fix what aint broken", to that sentence in particular, it is always good to change, static stuff go stale. Also there are too many threads about 60 range TD lately to assume that everything is OK simply as it is.


Suggested Changes:
*M10 becomes Stock.
-Same tier as M4A3 Sherman.
-Costs can be changed/debated
-Armor company slot can be used with another unit, feel free to post here which one would fit best.

*M36 becomes a last tier call-in.
-Similarly to OKW, after all 3 tech officers are on the field, a stock call-in M36 can be issued.
-I dont like to copycat mechanics in the game, but bare with me on this, the intent of making M36 a very late game unit is to justify the powerspike it has when compared to other allied TD. It can be considered a nerf though, an arrival time nerf. But since M10 is now a (or will be with tweaks) a reliable Pz4+ hunter, M36 can be the heavy tank destroyer and also a medium tank destroyer if desired. It is simply will require more tech.

*M36 becomes a specialized heavy tank destroyer. Post wich change would be best if the idea appeals you (Only if M36 becomes a call in)
-Buff standard shot Pen, RoF can be nerfed/left as is.
-Buff far acc, but only for stationary shots.
-Limit the jackson to 1 (optional nerf/adjustment)
-Post yourself if you have a better idea.

Agree with M10 as stock.
Disagree with M36 call-in, just add a single research(like brit hammer/anvil) for later tech, increasing its cost to around a panther.
No need to make M36 a weaker elefant clone. The current one is just too cheap to replace, higher cost should be sufficient enough.

Here’s a different opinion:

* Officers get super zooks
* M1 AT guns get nerfed reload time and slightly higher pen so they’re closer to ukf 6pdrs, sabot rounds become toggled and give same pen and reload as M36 HVAP
* M36 gets a bit more pen and a bit slower reload rate

Here’s a different opinion:

* Officers get super zooks
* M1 AT guns get nerfed reload time and slightly higher pen so they’re closer to ukf 6pdrs, sabot rounds become toggled and give same pen and reload as M36 HVAP
* M36 gets a bit more pen and a bit slower reload rate

Cool! I like those.
M1 AT change makes it more standard, but its a good change to allow USF to tackle tougher armor.
To me its either 1 or 2 of the 3. Not all three togheter.

Disagree with M36 call-in, just add a single research(like brit hammer/anvil) for later tech, increasing its cost to around a panther.
No need to make M36 a weaker elefant clone. The current one is just too cheap to replace, higher cost should be sufficient enough.

I agree. Adding another tech makes only the first jackson more expensive, but the upcoming ones after it are not as expensive.
I like the Cost/Effectiveness ratio to be rather equal to judge units strenght. A very reliable solution must be harder to get, because you know its going to be effective and useful.

Voted yes to all; it seems like a solid set of ideas to me, at least on paper.

1. The M10 becoming non-doc just makes sense. It gives USF an intermediate AT solution that they desperately need. However, the M10 couldn't be implemented with its current stats; right now it's balanced as a single doc-locked call-in, not as a default unit. It would probably need a price increase or something.

2. This is a good solution to where the M36 should go, in terms of teching, and it prevents the USF T4 from having two rows of icons in some cases.

3. Once all this happens, the M36 needs to become a dedicated heavy-counter, rather than the "everything on tracks" counter. Otherwise, this just delays the current issue, rather than fixing it. The M10 would need to have a reason to exist after the M36 was unlocked, which it wouldn't, without M36 changes.

Here’s a different opinion:

* Officers get super zooks
* M1 AT guns get nerfed reload time and slightly higher pen so they’re closer to ukf 6pdrs, sabot rounds become toggled and give same pen and reload as M36 HVAP
* M36 gets a bit more pen and a bit slower reload rate

No

No

yes, but price should be reduce

I don't think Jackson needs to be moved at all if we're making it worse against medium tanks, better against heavies. If it's not good against mediums anymore then there's no reason to build one right after major unlock anyway

I would give it 200 dmg back, increase reload time slightly, and reduce HP back to 480. If someone tries to get an M36 out first then a p4 can actually punish them if they aren't careful (the way it used to be)

However, the M10 couldn't be implemented with its current stats; right now it's balanced as a single doc-locked call-in, not as a default unit. It would probably need a price increase or something.

Yeah I think the stock version would need to be at least 100 fuel. They are 90 right now iirc

I don't think Jackson needs to be moved at all if we're making it worse against medium tanks, better against heavies. If it's not good against mediums anymore then there's no reason to build one right after major unlock anyway

I would give it 200 dmg back, increase reload time slightly, and reduce HP back to 480. If someone tries to get an M36 out first then a p4 can actually punish them if they aren't careful (the way it used to be)



Yeah I think the stock version would need to be at least 100 fuel. They are 90 right now iirc

Standard 200 dmg is too much IMO. But i can agree with the other statements.

The idea to move M36 to a last tier was to make it intuitive for the newer players. A risky M36 rush as a last tier is still possible because you only delay it by 40-30 fuel (assuming M36 its unchanged) and it gives more breathing room for axis mediums to play.

I don't think Jackson needs to be moved at all if we're making it worse against medium tanks, better against heavies. If it's not good against mediums anymore then there's no reason to build one right after major unlock anyway

I would give it 200 dmg back, increase reload time slightly, and reduce HP back to 480. If someone tries to get an M36 out first then a p4 can actually punish them if they aren't careful (the way it used to be)



Yeah I think the stock version would need to be at least 100 fuel. They are 90 right now iirc

No

Standard 200 dmg is too much IMO. But i can agree with the other statements.

Buffing damage would all depend on the reload time nerf. Imo it would be okay in combo with both a reload nerf + reducing to 480 HP like the old days

The idea to move M36 to a last tier was to make it intuitive for the newer players. A risky M36 rush as a last tier is still possible because you only delay it by 40-30 fuel (assuming M36 its unchanged) and it gives more breathing room for axis mediums to play.

That's a fair setup. Like I said I would only keep m36 where it is if its getting nerfed against mediums. If you nerf it against mediums that gives the breathing room as well

Voted yes to all; it seems like a solid set of ideas to me, at least on paper.

1. The M10 becoming non-doc just makes sense. It gives USF an intermediate AT solution that they desperately need. However, the M10 couldn't be implemented with its current stats; right now it's balanced as a single doc-locked call-in, not as a default unit. It would probably need a price increase or something.

2. This is a good solution to where the M36 should go, in terms of teching, and it prevents the USF T4 from having two rows of icons in some cases.

3. Once all this happens, the M36 needs to become a dedicated heavy-counter, rather than the "everything on tracks" counter. Otherwise, this just delays the current issue, rather than fixing it. The M10 would need to have a reason to exist after the M36 was unlocked, which it wouldn't, without M36 changes.

The M10 doesn't have a reason to exist now and it hasn't for a couple of years. It only makes sense being part of the Brit Lend-Lease Commander.

I don't understand the continued crying ahout this unit...oh wait I do. The OKW mains bitched and moaned to get it's armor nerfed and the balance team caved so now there is going to even more bitching and moaning until its just an expenisve M10.

The M10 doesn't have a reason to exist now and it hasn't for a couple of years. It only makes sense being part of the Brit Lend-Lease Commander.

I don't understand the continued crying ahout this unit...oh wait I do. The OKW mains bitched and moaned to get it's armor nerfed and the balance team caved so now there is going to even more bitching and moaning until its just an expenisve M10.

Yes... I know; it's because it's made completely redundant by the M36.

If you look at that chart, it's pretty clear that except for the M36, USF has nothing with decent pen. Their 2nd best option is the M1, with 130 pen at 60 range (far). 150 pen in CoH2 is basically useless; it'll work against "light" mediums, like a STUG or a stock P4, but that's it. It won't do anything against the pretty standard 230+ armor that axis brings to the table almost every game.

By adding in the M10 as a non-doc unit, suddenly there's a choice. Instead of either rushing straight to an M36, you can instead opt for a cheaper M10, that will likely deal with mediums just as well as the current M36. This is good for USF. It gives build variety, and also means you're not forced to save for the ~140f TD every round.

The point isn't to replace the M36, or to nerf the M36 to be an "expensive M10". BOTH units would be available, but they would be specialized; the M10 for fighting mediums, and the M36 for fighting heavies.

The OKW mains bitched and moaned to get it's armor nerfed

Are you seriously complaining about the Jackson armor nerf? Its such a minor change, was done mostly to prevent those occasional p4 deflections

Jackson will be weaker next patch with P4 target size reduction, armor and fuel nerf.

480 health was tried and judged a bad idea as they are just deleted at ease in team games. Jackson should be able to fight a jagdpanzer, lower DPS or HP just ruins that match up.

Honestly I think the unit is fine, it just needed a minor turret rotation and acceleration nerf. That would make it more historically accurate too.

I don't understand the continued crying ahout this unit...oh wait I do. The OKW mains bitched and moaned to get it's armor nerfed and the balance team caved so now there is going to even more bitching and moaning until its just an expenisve M10.

Because allied TDs can somewhat stand up to axis uber tanks. Obviously this calls for entire roster redesigns, HP and DPS reductions until they're thrown in the old comet trashcan.

Yes... I know; it's because it's made completely redundant by the M36.

If you look at that chart, it's pretty clear that except for the M36, USF has nothing with decent pen. Their 2nd best option is the M1, with 150 pen at 60 range (far). 150 pen in CoH2 is basically useless; it'll work against "light" mediums, like a STUG or a stock P4, but that's it. It won't do anything against the pretty standard 230+ armor that axis brings to the table almost every game.

By adding in the M10 as a non-doc unit, suddenly there's a choice. Instead of either rushing straight to an M36, you can instead opt for a cheaper M10, that will likely deal with mediums just as well as the current M36. This is good for USF. It gives build variety, and also means you're not forced to save for the ~140f TD every round.

The point isn't to replace the M36, or to nerf the M36 to be an "expensive M10". BOTH units would be available, but they would be specialized; the M10 for fighting mediums, and the M36 for fighting heavies.

Just wanna point this out, you're reading the pen values incorrectly on the graph. 150 is the near pen and 130 is the max range pen. It's near->far from left to right on it. I don't like that way but that is how it was made.

This graph also seems to be slightly dated. The JT armor is no longer 525 and is 450. Although I didn't notice any other wrong values. Doesn't include KV series from soviets for some reason or a lot of the sherman variants. So I think this graph is helpful, it has its downsides.

m10 stock - yes
m36 turned into heavy td - yes
put pershing in armor co maybe?

m10 will need some tuning to be stock, but that really is the best solution.
m36 gets the pen/dmg buff but rof nerf, should be very balanced

Just wanna point this out, you're reading the pen values incorrectly on the graph. 150 is the near pen and 130 is the max range pen. It's near->far from left to right on it. I don't like that way but that is how it was made.

This graph also seems to be slightly dated. The JT armor is no longer 525 and is 450. Although I didn't notice any other wrong values. Doesn't include KV series from soviets for some reason or a lot of the sherman variants. So I think this graph is helpful, it has its downsides.

Hah, you're right. What's even better is that I made that graph, so I should be able to read it.

I should have some time to update it this weekend, though. Any other suggestions?