OKW Salvage

Ehh, but you only get a 4 man crew. I always salvage or destroy, I'd rather have either of the axis MGs

It’s a free MG though. They don’t grow on trees. In 1v1 at least, in teamgames pop cap is always an issue.

You can also use it as a guard for your MG34, keeping it behind rotect vs flanks. You can also put it in a garrison or keep it at a fuel point.

you can argue that it is your own fault or it isnt a problem, go for it but saying it never happens or "i never do it, so it doesnt exist" is just dumb.

Nobody said that noone ever salvages team weapons or that if I don’t do it then noone else does it. There are legit points being raised here:

1) It’s way easier and more profitable to steal the TW.

2) There are other faction benefits to UKF/USF (weapons racks/Base arty/Major etc) that counter the okw benefit (salvage) in assymetric balance so strictly saying “if usf can’t salvage then okw shouldn’t” is a bad argument.

3) Plenty of ideas for a potential change have been tossed around, such as increasing the time required to salvage at the trade off of slightly higher resource gain.

4) Latch has made plenty of dumb threads in the past screaming about nonexistent issues and how unfair the game is to him (ex Vickers suppression and Panzerfusiliers), so people tend not to give him the benefit of the doubt.

5) Trying to roast everyone and assert that salvaging TWs is a huge issue is not constructive, not beneficial and not really true either since you didn’t prove that it’s an issue with your experience/logic/etc. Either give your own experience, your own reasoning with logic, your own solution or your own take from a 1v1 perspective. But please don’t try to moderate, there are others here that do that.

1) It’s way easier and more profitable to steal the TW.

2) There are other faction benefits to UKF/USF (weapons racks/Base arty/Major etc) that counter the okw benefit (salvage) in assymetric balance so strictly saying “if usf can’t salvage then okw shouldn’t” is a bad argument.

3) Plenty of ideas for a potential change have been tossed around, such as increasing the time required to salvage at the trade off of slightly higher resource gain.

4) Latch has made plenty of dumb threads in the past screaming about nonexistent issues and how unfair the game is to him (ex Vickers suppression and Panzerfusiliers), so people tend not to give him the benefit of the doubt.

5) Trying to roast everyone and assert that salvaging TWs is a huge issue is not constructive, not beneficial and not really true either since you didn’t prove that it’s an issue with your experience/logic/etc. Either give your own experience, your own reasoning with logic, your own solution or your own take from a 1v1 perspective. But please don’t try to moderate, there are others here that do that.

1. You can steal back the TW if OKW steal it, you cant if they salvage it, its easier to salvage it, evidented here, by, oh wow, YOU!

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103793/why-does-rak-need-retreat/post/803870

2. It has nothing to do with x has it so Y can't, if it was and that was my issues I would have said that the doctrinal units with the ability should be able to have it. Its the fact it is able to happen.

3. Wouldnt have those changes tossed around without a post on the topic...

4. Vickers supression IS bad:

Pfuzies are broken, mainly g43's + snares that ignores the factions limits and gets extra range. Just because YOU dont like my posts doesnt mean they are "dumb".

5. He did, he said he smokes and salvages the weapons, and its cheesy.

Or - again - do nothing, because there is no issue here.

Some random scrub losing team weapon is hardly worth a 5 page "balance" discussion.

even better, sure hope they dont patch out the ability.

You can steal back the TW if OKW steal it, you cant if they salvage it, its easier to salvage it, evidented here, by, oh wow, YOU!

???

What does attack moving a TW immediately after you recrew it have to do with salvaging? If there’s a big engagement happening between 5-8 units on each side and you decrew an MG/AT gun, all you can do is attack move it with your AT to deny your opponent recrewing it. You can’t salvage in the middle of a giant firefight and if there’s no firefight you can just steal it.

Stop twisting posts to fit your agenda.

Nobody said that noone ever salvages team weapons or that if I don’t do it then noone else does it. There are legit points being raised here:

1) It’s way easier and more profitable to steal the TW.

2) There are other faction benefits to UKF/USF (weapons racks/Base arty/Major etc) that counter the okw benefit (salvage) in assymetric balance so strictly saying “if usf can’t salvage then okw shouldn’t” is a bad argument.

3) Plenty of ideas for a potential change have been tossed around, such as increasing the time required to salvage at the trade off of slightly higher resource gain.

4) Latch has made plenty of dumb threads in the past screaming about nonexistent issues and how unfair the game is to him (ex Vickers suppression and Panzerfusiliers), so people tend not to give him the benefit of the doubt.

5) Trying to roast everyone and assert that salvaging TWs is a huge issue is not constructive, not beneficial and not really true either since you didn’t prove that it’s an issue with your experience/logic/etc. Either give your own experience, your own reasoning with logic, your own solution or your own take from a 1v1 perspective. But please don’t try to moderate, there are others here that do that.

1) depends on the situation, sometimes you dont need a additional mg/ mortar at gun plus at guns are difficult to get home safely. sometimes you cant pick them up without sacreficing a squad, plenty of reasons to salvage instead of stealing

2)I probably missed it but i dont recall anyone saying okw shouldn be able to salvage cause other factions cant, i definitely didnt... and i dont see the point how the usual one RE zook squad/major cancels out okw ability to deny tw with every single squad

3)yes, sooo... if there are plenty of ideas from different people floating around, how is Latch "delusional"? your words
apparently hes got a point

4/5) maybe dunno i dont care about his previous posts. Hes got a point with this one.
i only wanted to roast those who said Latch is a scrub for letting his tw get flanked or is "delusional" cause... you know, thats not constructive or not beneficial either

I made my reasoning/experience earlier (to make it short: it is too easy/cheesy to deny tw with every single main line infantry squad, at any stage of the game, at any part of the map)

???

What does attack moving a TW immediately after you recrew it have to do with salvaging? If there’s a big engagement happening between 5-8 units on each side and you decrew an MG/AT gun, all you can do is attack move it with your AT to deny your opponent recrewing it. You can’t salvage in the middle of a giant firefight and if there’s no firefight you can just steal it.

Stop twisting posts to fit your agenda.

Where did I say steal it back immediately?

4/5) maybe dunno i dont care about his previous posts. Hes got a point with this one.
i only wanted to roast those who said Latch is a scrub for letting his tw get flanked or is "delusional" cause... you know, thats not constructive or not beneficial either)

With you on that, absolutely. Team weapons get flanked constantly and are often decrewed. Pointing it out is telling a truth, not being a scrub.

The reason I pointed out weapons ranks is because it’s assymetrical balance, with each faction getting something unique.

Pop cap is definitely an issue, which is why I can see this being a thing in teamgames. 1v1 not so much in my view, though I might be wrong. It seems like a no brained to steal a TW instead of salvaging it.

Point is for this to be a good discussion there need to be some actual situations showing how it’s OP, like you’d shown a videoclip of planes nuking the enemy base back when sector assault was OP to show it’s OP. Until then it’s hard to argue against salvaging team weapons since most people don’t seem to have an issue.

It seems like a no brained to steal a TW instead of salvaging it.

Not really, stealing a weapon comes with a risk since it leaves your Sturmpio squad at 1 model
It also forces you to retreat, or at least back off to a bunker/251/battlegroup to reinforce your squad
If you salvage you can keep the squad on the frontline to push/lay mines etc.

Not that I agree with OP, I don't think its a big issue at all. Just mildly annoying that OKW gets to deny TW without needing AT guns/Vehicles/AT upgrades like everyone else.

Strategically how is it different from "A" attacking a support weapon vs salvage?

Strategically how is it different from "A" attacking a support weapon vs salvage?

Other than resource gain it is quicker, easier and availible on mainline infantry with no upgrades or cost (obviously) from pure stat differences, salvage is 100% going to remove the weapon in 11 seconds whereas firing an AT gun at it from even close range can miss.

See this for an example of bad RNG:

https://youtu.be/al8Y0sQKITU?t=17

Somehow unrelated question:

How many abilities are not dependable on the amount of models carrying the action? Or to be more specific, only 1 model been the max time it takes to perform the action?

Outside of nerfing the ability, this would be the most fair change.

Strategically how is it different from "A" attacking a support weapon vs salvage?

1. salvage is available on every single volk, you can salvage tw in a corner of the map where you dont want your at guns
2. volks are more expendable than at guns, its less punishing to lose a volk than a at gun in the process
3. in some (late game) scenarios you dont want to reveal your exact at guns position or you need them available/elsewhere
4. as Latch said, its more reliable. Happens way to often that my tank misses a at gun 3times in a row and the opponent is able to reclaim the at gun

On the other hand, at guns/tanks can destroy tw from a save distance and 2 at pieces can it do faster, considering they dont miss

...
4. as Latch said, its more reliable. Happens way to often that my tank misses a at gun 3times in a row and the opponent is able to reclaim the at gun
...

The chance of Sherman firing at AT gun at range 20 and missing 3 times in a row is 1.5% (and 5.3 vs RW).

1. salvage is available on every single volk, you can salvage tw in a corner of the map where you dont want your at guns
2. volks are more expendable than at guns, its less punishing to lose a volk than a at gun in the process
3. in some (late game) scenarios you dont want to reveal your exact at guns position or you need them available/elsewhere
4. as Latch said, its more reliable. Happens way to often that my tank misses a at gun 3times in a row and the opponent is able to reclaim the at gun

On the other hand, at guns/tanks can destroy tw from a save distance and 2 at pieces can it do faster, considering they dont miss

Team weapons often receive damage while being crewed, therefore when decrewed they only need a single shot. A attacking is safer because it poses no loses to deny/capture the so called TW

TW are also target of mines or ambush HMGs. A attacking from far is simply the brainded counter to this.

If a TW is really on a contested frontline its impossible to retrieve/scavenge. A smoke to enable a volk squad to do so is also a smoke to break through, it means also a squad less that will fight. Any sightblocker is useful to reposition active TW. Its not a balance issue, its a player tactical skill issue.

Team weapons often receive damage while being crewed, therefore when decrewed they only need a single shot. A attacking is safer because it poses no loses to deny/capture the so called TW

TW are also target of mines or ambush HMGs. A attacking from far is simply the brainded counter to this.

If a TW is really on a contested frontline its impossible to retrieve/scavenge. A smoke to enable a volk squad to do so is also a smoke to break through, it means also a squad less that will fight. Any sightblocker is useful to reposition active TW. Its not a balance issue, its a player tactical skill issue.

i dont know why you quote everything i said when you pretty much ignore everything.
most players dont bother with it but some actually repair their tw. As i said, a-attacking is usually safer but there are alot of scenarios where you just cant do that.
just the simple example of a mg dying as it leaves a house, you cant always get your at guns in a safe position to destroy it
yes, you cant salvage stuff on a contested frontline but on a less contested flank you can, plus your at guns probably wont be on the flank to deny the tw as soon as you decrew it

I dont really get the comparison between a-attacking tw and salvaging, okw can choose the appropriate option, other factions cant. all i did was listing advantages from salvaging which i dont think you can deny

The chance of Sherman firing at AT gun at range 20 and missing 3 times in a row is 1.5% (and 5.3 vs RW).

rw= raketenwerfer?
i dont know how long it takes for a sherman/t34/cromwell to fire 2-3 shots, i guess its somewhat the same as the 11sec salvage. salvaging is still more reliable since theres a 0% chance of failure.
and im pretty sure these numbers are in a vacuum, in practice the shots colide with the terrain/cover etc.

...
rw= raketenwerfer?

yes

i dont know how long it takes for a sherman/t34/cromwell to fire 2-3 shots, i guess its somewhat the same as the 11sec salvage. salvaging is still more reliable since theres a 0% chance of failure.
and im pretty sure these numbers are in a vacuum, in practice the shots colide with the terrain/cover etc.

No this are not "numbers is vacuum" this are the correct number for "natural hits" so they can not collide with anything. You can test them in Cheat mode if you like but I doubt you kill get different results.

just the simple example of a mg dying as it leaves a house, you cant always get your at guns in a safe position to destroy it

In 99.99% of these cases though you'll try to steal it.

Not really, stealing a weapon comes with a risk since it leaves your Sturmpio squad at 1 model
It also forces you to retreat, or at least back off to a bunker/251/battlegroup to reinforce your squad
If you salvage you can keep the squad on the frontline to push/lay mines etc.

Where is this "build Spios only and never build Volks" meta you speak of?

Where is this "build Spios only and never build Volks" meta you speak of?

Probably in the same place where your counter-arguments to my points are, which is nowhere to be found.

You said it's a no-brainer to steal a TW,I gave you a few examples where it isn't
If you don't see a value in keeping a full squad at the frontlie, the the ability to deny a teamweapon anywhere, anytime with no supporting AT weaponry, and if you want to ignore the risks of stealing a TW, then so be it.
Shit I even agreed that ability to do that is NOT a huge issue, but saying the ability has no value is wrong.

Probably in the same place where your counter-arguments to my points are, which is nowhere to be found.

You said it's a no-brainer to steal a TW,I gave you a few examples where it isn't
If you don't see a value in keeping a full squad at the frontlie, the the ability to deny a teamweapon anywhere, anytime with no supporting AT weaponry, and if you want to ignore the risks of stealing a TW, then so be it.
Shit I even agreed that ability to do that is NOT a huge issue, but saying the ability has no value is wrong.

You said “Not really, stealing a weapon comes with a risk since it leaves your Sturmpio squad at 1 model” which is quite far off from “if you happen to only have an Spio close by”. Not that I agree anyway, stealing a teamweapon is way more important than keeping an Spio squad near the front for the 45 secs it takes to run back, reinforce and return.

I get that it’s not always possible to recrew, but usually you can recrew and it’s best if you do that. The cases where you wipe a TW and can either salvage or retreat are pretty niche.