USF Scott and Pak howitzer nerfs achieved nothing

Title says it all. Both units are still OP. The nerfs didn't achieve anything. It's just pure cancer to go against double Scott, double Jackson infinite pop cap armies. They just can't be countered unless Ele or JT is on the field.

Pak Howitzer is way too powerful for how fast it arrives. It's 10x better than any mortar or Leig. It's now more RNG than before but the AOE is still big enough to randomly wipe units out of nowhere. Not sure why it has to be so much better than any of it's equivalents.

What I'd do about the Pak Howi is make it 6 man again. Reduce the reinforce cost of the models. That way it becomes less of an MP sink in late game but in return make it's AOE slightly worse so it doesn't get so many wipes or near wipes.

Scott should probably be slightly less durable so it should lose the smoke cannister panic button. It still takes 3 shots to kill it so they will still not be that easy to kill.

Hmm, reasonable suggestions

Scott should probably be slightly less durable so it should lose the smoke cannister panic button. It still takes 3 shots to kill it so they will still not be that easy to kill.

+1

It still has a smoke barrage too so it certainly doesn't need the defensive smoke

I've always liked Katitof's idea for the Pack Howie: remove the autofire and make it a barrage weapon.

As for the Scott, my personal favourite solution is to move its Vet 1 smoke pot to the Stuart. That simultaneously deals with the Scott's excessive survivability against the dives which are meant to be its weakness and makes the Stuart function in the medium armour phase.

I've always liked Katitof's idea for the Pack Howie: remove the autofire and make it a barrage weapon.

As for the Scott, my personal favourite solution is to move its Vet 1 smoke pot to the Stuart. That simultaneously deals with the Scott's excessive survivability against the dives which are meant to be its weakness and makes the Stuart function in the medium armour phase.

No way should the Stuart get smoke. It would be super unfair in the Luchs/Puma vs Stuart match-ups and make it too durable overall. IMO Stuart is fine as it is right now.

Maybe give it some more utility with vet so it has an easier time being useful once bigger tanks have arrived.

Pak howitzer shouldn’t have autofire, agreed.

Scott should die in 2 shots, not 3.

No way should the Stuart get smoke. It would be super unfair in the Luchs/Puma vs Stuart match-ups and make it too durable overall. IMO Stuart is fine as it is right now.

Maybe give it some more utility with vet so it has an easier time being useful once bigger tanks have arrived.

It has utility. The problem is it doesn't have the penetration to hurt mediums despite being an ostensible AT light, and without smoke it gets killed as easily as any other light.

Vet 1 Smoke isn't the best solution, but I doubt the Stuart will get the overhaul it needs at this point in the game's life.

Pak Howitzer is way too powerful for how fast it arrives. It's 10x better than any mortar or Leig. It's now more RNG than before but the AOE is still big enough to randomly wipe units out of nowhere.

Pretty much. A lot of people (myself included) pointed this out before the patch released; the changes just turn the Pak Howie/Scott from consistent wiping machines to RNG wiping machines.

I'd suggest that in both cases the AoE should be reduced by a fair bit. Taking out a single model with a direct hit is fine, but due to OST's horrible "infantry clumping" issue (4 models in cover moving very close together), both these units have a high chance of hitting (and wiping) all 4 models instantly.

While it's definitely not as bad as before, having 2 scotts still provides far too much power, and they're far too hard to counter due to smoke, high HP (requires 3 hits), as well as other units (they're usually protected by M36s). The same can be said for the Pak, but more due to its range and auto-fire capabilities.

Alternatively, the Scott's auto-fire range could be reduced a fair bit, without any other changes. This would force it to come closer to axis units, thereby being more vulnerable.

+1

I think standard pack howie rounds should more or less be clones of the leig. That way it's still is effective but doesn't just one shot entire squads or leave them with a fraction of HP left.

Scotts die in 2 shots and have smoke

or

Scotts die in 3 shots and have no smoke

Scotts die in 2 shots and have smoke

or

Scotts die in 3 shots and have no smoke

Yeah IMO either of these two solutions would work.

Scott need to be reworked i suggest delete autofire and buff range and barrage then u will have something like mini priest - good unit against stationary units
Pack howie is fine comes late its not cheap and single Rocket barrage kill it
Seriously there is a small window for that kind of arty espiecally in teamgames and we dont need another mortar

And about double Scott tactic yeah its annoying but double Rocket arty is more dangerous and requires zero micro but yeah fck logic lets nerf it because someone beat me
If someone micro 4 units and win with u then i guess there is more l2p problem
U gave yourself best advice just make elefant + Rocket arty and win

I like the suggestions put forth for both units.
Removing the auto fire on the pak howi makes it more micro intensive to warrant its payload and the losing the smoke (my preferred route) on the Scott makes it less forgiving given its range and mobility.

Alternative +10mp for the pak howi and +5 fuel for the Scott but I'm worried those would be too far

(2vs2) perspektive

the problem with this is that usf kind of needs the pak howi cheese to stay viable on certain maps, with worse pak howi it will just suck on maps like rails and metal and such, double mg + sniper (for example) will have no effective punishment. Its kind of the same with the Jackson one needs to be carefull about nerfs ( they certainly are very strong but are a needed element in the faction)

This is kind of the same with zis gun barrage.

Pak howi certainly requires more micro these days, autofire isnt worth it so much.

When i play ostheer i mostly have no problem with a pak howitzer wiping my sqads as long as there is only 1, the last change certainly made them less wipey, becouse they deal only a lot of hp dmg, so when i loose a sqad its mostly due to misplay.

However when the usf player gets 2 pak howitzers stuff start off to get really cancerous becouse one deals the hp dmg and another one wipes it.

I could definetly get used to a cost increase + higher aim time on autofire, but barrage needs to remain strong

The scott should definetly get

1 a cost increase
2 remove the smoke and add faster barrage cooldown as vet 1

(2vs2) perspektive

the problem with this is that usf kind of needs the pak howi cheese to stay viable on certain maps, with worse pak howi it will just suck on maps like rails and metal and such, double mg + sniper (for example) will have no effective punishment. Its kind of the same with the Jackson one needs to be carefull about nerfs ( they certainly are very strong but are a needed element in the faction)

This is kind of the same with zis gun barrage.

Pak howi certainly requires more micro these days, autofire isnt worth it so much.

When i play ostheer i mostly have no problem with a pak howitzer wiping my sqads as long as there is only 1, the last change certainly made them less wipey, becouse they deal only a lot of hp dmg, so when i loose a sqad its mostly due to misplay.

However when the usf player gets 2 pak howitzers stuff start off to get really cancerous becouse one deals the hp dmg and another one wipes it.

I could definetly get used to a cost increase + higher aim time on autofire, but barrage needs to remain strong

The scott should definetly get

1 a cost increase
2 remove the smoke and add faster barrage cooldown as vet 1

But that doesn't explain why the Pak Howitzer is so much better than the Leig or UKF's indirect options. Both UKF and OKW struggle vs team weapon spam on maps without flanking opportunities like Rails, Crossing, Minsk or Kharkov. Yet they don't get anything close to the Pak Howi. OKW can go non-doctrinal Stuka but spending 100 fuel to deal with MGs isn't a great option because of how much it delays tanks. UKF has to rely on the terrible mortar pit or go for a doctrinal solution. But Sexton after barrage cool down nerf and Landmattress are mediocre too.

At least we all agree the Scott is too durable maybe the balance team can give it a thought?

But that doesn't explain why the Pak Howitzer is so much better than the Leig or UKF's indirect options. Both UKF and OKW struggle vs team weapon spam on maps without flanking opportunities like Rails, Crossing, Minsk or Kharkov. Yet they don't get anything close to the Pak Howi. OKW can go non-doctrinal Stuka but spending 100 fuel to deal with MGs isn't a great option because of how much it delays tanks. UKF has to rely on the terrible mortar pit or go for a doctrinal solution. But Sexton after barrage cool down nerf and Landmattress are mediocre too.

I'm talking with 1v1 perspective:

UKF doesn't need to go out of their way to build mortar pit, it comes with regular teching and OKW Leig's performance is pretty good compared to mortars. USF needs to go for an unfavourable teching route (i.e. You don't have access to Stuart) and pay more to get the pack howitzer or choose a specific doctrine. And despite that, it still has effectively 3 crew members, no retreat function unlike mortars thus easily decrewable. Seriously, I don't think it's fair to compare it to other mortars, the only light artillery it's comparable against is Leig which costs less and comes with a tier that has medics in it.

I'm talking with 1v1 perspective:

UKF doesn't need to go out of their way to build mortar pit, it comes with regular teching and OKW Leig's performance is pretty good compared to mortars. USF needs to go for an unfavourable teching route (i.e. You don't have access to Stuart) and pay more to get the pack howitzer or choose a specific doctrine. And despite that, it still has effectively 3 crew members, no retreat function unlike mortars thus easily decrewable. Seriously, I don't think it's fair to compare it to other mortars, the only light artillery it's comparable against is Leig which costs less and comes with a tier that has medics in it.

In 2v2 Captain is meta and picked around 75% over LT currently. At the same time Mech or Battlegroup HQ is around 50/50. So these points are really not that relevant for 2v2. Also in 1v1 Mech HQ is still meta so that would be an argument against Leig.

In 2v2 Captain is meta and picked around 75% over LT currently. At the same time Mech or Battlegroup HQ is around 50/50. So these points are really not that relevant for 2v2. Also in 1v1 Mech HQ is still meta so that would be an argument against Leig.

Fair enough, I don't know much about 2v2 meta.

Recently though, I see more Battlegroup HQ techs than Mechanized HQ techs in 1v1s. It's true that Mechanized is still a preferable tier in comparison to Battlegroup but I thought that would be 50/50 in 1v1, too. Do we have any up-to-date automatch stats for 1v1 meta to confirm whether Mechanized is still meta?