jackson armor nerf

Where was anyone saying the Puma would/should hard counter the Jackson? I really don't get why people are beating this horse so much

Every little change helps

My suggested changes are intentionally designed to not make the puma a hard counter to the M36. They wouldn't even make the puma a soft-counter. At best, it would be a vague deterrent.

The setup:
There are no other units.

M36 at between 361 to 480hp, out of 640hp (56.4% to 75% hp)
M36 at vet 0
M36 front armor reduced to 110 from 130

Puma at 400 out of 400hp (100%)
Puma at vet 1
Puma moving accuracy mult from 0.5 to 0.6


The engagement:
Both are at max range, both moving at max speed (and stay this way the entire time).
The puma immediately lands it's vet 1 ability (45 muni), locking the M36 turret.
The puma moves out of the way of the M36's fixed turret
The puma continues to fire at the M36 for 15 seconds (duration of the ability)
15 seconds pass
The M36 can now fire on the Puma
The puma continues to fire on the M36
Another 32 seconds pass
There is a 50:50 chance as to which unit survives


You may confused my actual suggestion (above) with my terrible suggestion (below), which still only makes the puma a soft counter to the M36, at best.


Show Spoiler

What the point of it? Would it make you build a Puma to counter a Jackson? Would it make you rely on an -already built Puma to counter a Jackson?

Puma
Pz4
Jadpz4
Panther
King
- Each of these unit and pen Jack & Sherman.

- - -

Stuart
Sherman
Jackson
- Stuart and Sherman can not pen anything above Pz4
- Only Jackson with 240pen have chance on Panther 260armor. Not mention King 375armor.


Why do I see some people want USF have to use Sherman & Zook to fight their Panther & King?
Like, guys? You talk like USF have Pershing & IS2 non doc.

Are Panther 960hp & King 1280hp are not enough to fight against 2-3 Jackson 640hp?

By that logic the only things we should build are Churchills and KV1s. Range, pen, ROF, turret rotation, accuracy....Yeah why bother with all the unnecessary details?

And it's pretty amazing that you think a Panther AND a King Tiger vs 2 Jacksons is a fair fight. The KT alone is close to double the Jackson's cost.

And of course, if it's a large amount of open ground, the 2 Jacksons would still win anyway by simply kiting.

Oh man, so much stupidity in your argument.

IMO what I'd to with the Jackson is

a) make it 560 HP like the Stug
b) remove the penetration bonus it gets with vet and replace it with +80HP
c) make it slightly cheaper

What this does--> it makes the Jackson less durable and less capable of just mindlessly rushing around the map. It also makes HVAP useful because now you will not penetrate every allied vehicle with the stock round. Then after those changes it can be made slightly cheaper to compensate for the performance nerfs.

What the point of it? Would it make you build a Puma to counter a Jackson? Would it make you rely on an -already built Puma to counter a Jackson?

The point is that it gives OKW (and OST, sometimes) another option to delay the M36. Other than doc-locked vehicles, Axis only has the JP4 at 60 range, and that comes fairly late. Buffing the puma slightly (0.5 -> 0.6 moving acc) gives it just enough strength to be able to hold off the M36 (when the puma has vet 1) for a while.

Also, the Puma's moving accuracy is really annoying to deal with. As it's been brought up, you basically need to 'stop and start' repeatedly for it to hit anything on the move. This would slightly improve the situation, without changing anything else.

This change won't entirely fix the M36's over performance, but at least its a step in the right direction.

IMO what I'd to with the Jackson is

a) make it 560 HP like the Stug
b) remove the penetration bonus it gets with vet and replace it with +80HP
c) make it slightly cheaper

What this does--> it makes the Jackson less durable and less capable of just mindlessly rushing around the map. It also makes HVAP useful because now you will not penetrate every allied vehicle with the stock round. Then after those changes it can be made slightly cheaper to compensate for the performance nerfs.

wont happen. I doubt jackson will ever be touched.
The last recent nerf was a +5 fuel.

I will suggest more KT to doctrine. Replace it with supply truck.
Then reduce 60Td to 55Td and reduce their vet bonuses.

By that logic the only things we should build are Churchills and KV1s. Range, pen, ROF, turret rotation, accuracy....Yeah why bother with all the unnecessary details?

And it's pretty amazing that you think a Panther AND a King Tiger vs 2 Jacksons is a fair fight. The KT alone is close to double the Jackson's cost.

And of course, if it's a large amount of open ground, the 2 Jacksons would still win anyway by simply kiting.

Oh man, so much stupidity in your argument.

- - -
Man..you dont even understand what Im talking about
See that line? USF should have Jackson nerf to they may use Sherman as AT option.

I dont compare on Jackson & King.
I list out all the unit that Okw can use to fight Jackson, and list out all the unit that USF can use to fight Panther & King.

Im sure you're pro enough to understand only Jackson able to fight Panther & King. Stuart and Sherman can only fight Puma Pz4 Jadpz4
On the other hand, Puma Pz4 Jadpz4 Panther King. Tell me one unit that can not pen 130armor Jackson.

Put Wolverine non doc like Puma
Put Comet non doc like Panther
Put IS2 non doc like King
- And all you have is Panther.
Sounds OP isnt it? Thats USF vs Okw.

What this does--> it makes the Jackson less durable and less capable of just mindlessly rushing around the map.

I suggest you to watch this vid and see which tank usually mindlessly rushing around into base
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjZvni_l38U

Yes, the tank with 960hp. Not 640hp.

IMO what I'd to with the Jackson is

a) make it 560 HP like the Stug
b) remove the penetration bonus it gets with vet and replace it with +80HP
c) make it slightly cheaper

What this does--> it makes the Jackson less durable and less capable of just mindlessly rushing around the map. It also makes HVAP useful because now you will not penetrate every allied vehicle with the stock round. Then after those changes it can be made slightly cheaper to compensate for the performance nerfs.

IB4 someone mentions the BIG TDs and how that affects teamgames.


What i would like:

Penetration on vet 2 vet3 reduced to keep same chance of pen as what Axis tank get at vet 2.

Probably hit mobility.

IB4 someone mentions the BIG TDs and how that affects teamgames.


What i would like:

Penetration on vet 2 reduced to keep same chance of pen as what Axis tank get at vet 2.

Probably hit mobility.

Isnt the pen bonus for Jackson at vet 3? Guide on this site says so, but could be out of date

Isnt the pen bonus for Jackson at vet 3? Guide on this site says so, but could be out of date

U are right. The Su85 is the one which gets it at vet2

wont happen. I doubt jackson will ever be touched.
The last recent nerf was a +5 fuel.

Yup the 10 whole second delay in the Jackson hitting the field certainly wasn't high impact. Token balance changes are worse than actually attempting to balance something if you ask me because it's acknowledging an issue but doing nothing for it.

Yup the 10 whole second delay in the Jackson hitting the field certainly wasn't high impact. Token balance changes are worse than actually attempting to balance something if you ask me because it's acknowledging an issue but doing nothing for it.

Especially when its just a tiny cost increase specifically

With tiny stat changes I can at least understand them trying to avoid a Comet scenario

But +5 fuel is just lip service

- - -
Man..you dont even understand what Im talking about
See that line? USF should have Jackson nerf to they may use Sherman as AT option.

I dont compare on Jackson & King.
I list out all the unit that Okw can use to fight Jackson, and list out all the unit that USF can use to fight Panther & King.

Im sure you're pro enough to understand only Jackson able to fight Panther & King. Stuart and Sherman can only fight Puma Pz4 Jadpz4
On the other hand, Puma Pz4 Jadpz4 Panther King. Tell me one unit that can not pen 130armor Jackson.

Put Wolverine non doc like Puma
Put Comet non doc like Panther
Put IS2 non doc like King
- And all you have is Panther.
Sounds OP isnt it? Thats USF vs Okw.

You still don't understand the stupidity of your "argument". Units have different resource costs and timings, and vacuum comparisons without considering the actual in-game context is deceptive and dishonest. USF has very little stock armour variety, but that doesn't change the fact that the Jackson is too good at the moment. In any case, you totally missed the fact that an armour nerf doesn't change the matchup of Jackson vs Panther.

The King Tiger has such atrocious turret rotation, acceleration, speed, and turn rate that medium tank rushes actually deal with it very well. The Jackson certainly isn't the only counter for it. And it's weird that most low-rank USF players don't realise they have the best AT gun in the game. By the time you're fighting Panthers and KT, surely you can afford a small handful of muni to give the AT gun which has the best RoF, tracking, and fire arc the highest penetration as well.

In any case, your "argument" is beyond retarded. You're using "can this unit be easily penned" as the basis of your "argument" for whether the Jackson can be countered. Virtually all good players agree that the Jackson has no weakness, and is especially painful for Ostheer to deal with. Other TDs, meanwhile, all have weaknesses. Stugs have 50 range and no turret, SU76s have no turret and are horribly fragile, the Firefly's cost and RoF are criminal, SU85 and JP4 are poor-mobility casemates which can get circle strafed by anyone - even slow tanks like the Churchill or KV1 can circle-strafe a jp4. The Jackson, meanwhile is A 60 range high pen unit with high moving acc, turret rotation, and the mobility of a P4. The Jackson isn't relying on its armour to deflect King Tiger shells. It relies on the player not being a retard who engages the King Tiger in a close-range brawl.

The Jackson's insane mobility makes it too good at escaping from anything that tries to kill it, AND makes it too good at chasing after high value targets compared to every other TD. I would have thought even low-elo players could understand this simple concept.

The only unit that actually counters Jacksons is the Jp4, but even then it only forces it back. Diving with a Panther is horribly risky since the Panther costs way more than the Jackson, and it's only really possible when all his riflemen are out of position. Pumas can only dive when the Jackson is heavily damaged, and P4s literally have no chance against a decent player.

Imo Jackson needs an armour AND a mobility nerf, but should probably get a price reduction to compensate.

Speaking other retard doesnt make you smart.
I give you a short, single point I want to put.

Axis, especially Okw, have 5 options to fight Jackson
USF, only Jack IS THE ONLY OPTION to fight both King and Panther and you still want to nerf.

Sounds stupid, but put Wol, Comet, IS2 non doc for USF.
Then Jackson can ve nerfed down to 50armor. Because there are other option that I can use.
-this is also the main problems to balance Tommy since its THE ONLY FRONT LINE INFANTRY NON DOC

Again, I dont bring the comparison between units. Stop putting your thinking into my word

The point is that it gives OKW (and OST, sometimes) another option to delay the M36. Other than doc-locked vehicles, Axis only has the JP4 at 60 range, and that comes fairly late. Buffing the puma slightly (0.5 -> 0.6 moving acc) gives it just enough strength to be able to hold off the M36 (when the puma has vet 1) for a while.

Also, the Puma's moving accuracy is really annoying to deal with. As it's been brought up, you basically need to 'stop and start' repeatedly for it to hit anything on the move. This would slightly improve the situation, without changing anything else.

This change won't entirely fix the M36's over performance, but at least its a step in the right direction.

Lol, at the end you're objective is clear: buffing the Puma. Jackson is just an excuse.

Speaking other retard doesnt make you smart.
I give you a short, single point I want to put.

Axis, especially Okw, have 5 options to fight Jackson
USF, only Jack IS THE ONLY OPTION to fight both King and Panther and you still want to nerf.

Sounds stupid, but put Wol, Comet, IS2 non doc for USF.
Then Jackson can ve nerfed down to 50armor. Because there are other option that I can use.
-this is also the main problems to balance Tommy since its THE ONLY FRONT LINE INFANTRY NON DOC

Again, I dont bring the comparison between units. Stop putting your thinking into my word

This is not one single point, thus is honestly jumping all over the place. Comparing two factions vs one, IS2 nondoc for USF, suddenly on topic Jackson, then back to Tommy sections.
But indeed I at least did not see a comparison

Yup the 10 whole second delay in the Jackson hitting the field certainly wasn't high impact. Token balance changes are worse than actually attempting to balance something if you ask me because it's acknowledging an issue but doing nothing for it.

Yeah that change was very very weird. I don't know what they thought it is going to accomplish?

And it's weird that most low-rank USF players don't realise they have the best AT gun in the game. By the time you're fighting Panthers and KT, surely you can afford a small handful of muni to give the AT gun which has the best RoF, tracking, and fire arc the highest penetration as well.

You forgot the extra range it gets. But I agree completely. It is so frustrating when people claim the USF AT gun is somehow bad when it is clearly the best in the anti-tank department. Guess none of them had their tanks sniped at 65 range (or whatever take aim gives, maybe even 70?) by a combination of HVAP shells and Take Aim self spotting before.

How many times do people need to point out that the USF ATG is absolutely insane when feeding it some muni. And feeding it some muni really is not a big deal considering it is currently the chepeast AT-gun in COH2. (other than soviet mini at gun)

I don't really understand why an occasional bounce from a p4 is so unbalanced. When it comes to regular tank battles, other tanks bounce shots off the p4. I've had a p4 miss, but not bounce on an allied tank. When it comes to unfair bouncing it only gets worse as you go up from p4. Axis heavier armor can double or triple their already high health with bounced shots. 57mm, m36, m4, bazooka, all frequently bounce. Axis AT can reliably 4 shot an m36, with p4 sometimes needing 5 on m36. At least with USF, I've had panthers just parked in front of a 57mm, not pay attention to the panther, bounce 4 57mm shots, then notice and move it back. The m36 still has disappearing rounds too, either it doesn't shoot out the barrel or the round disappears when it reaches the target, doing 0 damage. It's quite pathetic, so I really don't see why the p4 sometimes bouncing one shot is anything significant.