jackson armor nerf

If the Jackson has human input the Puma can't realistically defeat it.

I dont disagree. At no point was I saying a Puma can defeat a Jackson by itself

You're already getting everything handed to you as OKW. Why should they hand you a Jackson nerf too? What's that saying? L2p?

Puma
Pz4
Jadpz4
Panther
King
- Each of these unit and pen Jack & Sherman.

- - -

Stuart
Sherman
Jackson
- Stuart and Sherman can not pen anything above Pz4
- Only Jackson with 240pen have chance on Panther 260armor. Not mention King 375armor.


Why do I see some people want USF have to use Sherman & Zook to fight their Panther & King?
Like, guys? You talk like USF have Pershing & IS2 non doc.

Are Panther 960hp & King 1280hp are not enough to fight against 2-3 Jackson 640hp?

I dont disagree. At no point was I saying a Puma can defeat a Jackson by itself

Guess what sherlok, some people are trying to first let others understand the chances of a PUMA vs M36 in an open discussion and after that suggest it to have considerable chances to either counter or pose some kind of threat to M36. Its considered a Indirect nerf, plus the armor reduction. And thats no offtopic at all

Guess what sherlok,

Can you stop trying to start a fight with me please?

some people are trying to first let others understand the chances of a PUMA vs M36 in an open discussion and after that suggest it to have considerable chances to either counter or pose some kind of threat to M36. Its considered a Indirect nerf, plus the armor reduction. And thats no offtopic at all

This paragraph doesn't even make sense

All I said was talking about the Stug is offtopic...... No clue what you're on about

This thread was already about Jackson vs P4 and Puma...

I was saying to make a thread about nerfing the Jackson overall/its performance compared to other things like Stug

I'd agree with you in 1v1s, but in 2v2+ this just isn't the case due to numbers. It's pretty common to see USF players with 2-3 M36s in team-games, which means up to 12 M36s in total. A panther just can't dive that - neither can a bunch of panthers.

Additionally, Axis (ost in particular, imo) is much more reliant on vehicles as AI than most other factions, which means less pop-cap is available for spamming panthers. Most games I simply don't have the room for more than 2.

Yes this! Ok maybe not 3 60td per mates. Usually i meet 1-2 60td per mates with ATg.

In any case, seems 60td is most oppressive in 2v2 games.

The only time i dared to dive if i know enemy tank is half health with no snares infantry in sight, and im having good resources.

The cost/risk/rewards of panther diving is poor these days. A snares or mines and you are gambling a more expensive unit against a cheaper one.

Most games i play panther no differently than 60td, wait and snip, only without the extra 10 range. The extra hp and armor dont give me confidence in its reliability

Now im training tiger, hoping to get its rof vet bonus asap.

Panther is too expensive and scales poorly late games.

Another call out for usf m1 ATg. Imo best around, cheap faster and still deadly. The coh2 meta has been speed and more speed, more apm.

Rather than careful position and repositioning. Simply not enough time for such deliberate plays.

M1 also seem to vet up faster. Likely due to its rof and axis tanks giving higher xp

You're already getting everything handed to you as OKW. Why should they hand you a Jackson nerf too? What's that saying? L2p?

The puma is also available to OST, although only through one obscure and/or unpopular doc (it was never used in WCS). I did suggest a few pages back to make the puma non-doc for OST as well, but that seems to have been missed.

Puma
Pz4
Jadpz4
Panther
King
- Each of these unit and pen Jack & Sherman.

- - -

Stuart
Sherman
Jackson
- Stuart and Sherman can not pen anything above Pz4
- Only Jackson with 240pen have chance on Panther 260armor. Not mention King 375armor.

Why do I see some people want USF have to use Sherman & Zook to fight their Panther & King?
Like, guys? You talk like USF have Pershing & IS2 non doc.

Are Panther 960hp & King 1280hp are not enough to fight against 2-3 Jackson 640hp?

Firstly, the M36 armor nerf really wouldn't do all that much to the M36, in terms of player use. All it does is remove the (rare) possibility of the P4 bouncing on it, which only happens 5% of the time at close range, and 15% at max range. Many would consider this a QOL change, rather than a balance change.

The vast majority of axis AT has over 130 pen at max range (such as the JP4, panther and KT that you listed), meaning they already pen 100% of the time. The exception, as others have pointed out, is the puma; it sits at 80 pen, so the M36's armor being reduced to 110 from 130 actually increases its pen chance from ~60% to ~70% (exact numbers posted a few pages back).

This is where the discussion was a bit earlier; should the puma become a somewhat viable deterrent (note, not a counter) to the M36?


Secondly, this thread has tried to focus on M36, P4, Puma, in hopes of somewhat containing the chain of 'knock on' problems changing any of these would make. If a change was made to the Puma, or M36, other units would also have to change.

If the Jackson fires 10 shots (including the starting freebie) in 63 seconds, isnt the reload time 7 seconds, not 9?

Stats on coh2db seem to put the time between shots between 6 and 6.6 seconds.

Hannibal did some testing a few pages ago, and came to the conclusion that the Puma fires once every 4.33 seconds, and the M36 every 9 seconds. This is only 5% off your numbers for the puma, which seems reasonable, but 27% off for the M36, which is a lot.

That said, I did forget to remove the first reload, as you pointed out. However, this just shifts things more in favor of the M36.




/edit
I just realized there's some flawed math in Hannibal's post. 10 shots, or 9 reloads, in 63 seconds means 63/9... which means the reload is 7 seconds. Not really sure where 9 came from.

My own testing showed 11 shots (10 reloads) in ~68 seconds, which gives a reload of 6.8 seconds. This still doesn't line up with your (or CoH2DB's) numbers, but it's closer.

I also tested the Puma, which gave 11 shots (10 reloads) in 42 seconds, which works out to a 4.2 second reload. Again, not exactly your numbers, but very close.



I mean "core concept" changes. The M36 was changed from low RoF/High damage to Medium RoF/Medium damage because it used to do absurdly high 'alpha' damage, which was a real problem when in groups (or against LVs). I can't think of a time when a change was made, justified thoroughly, and then reverted entirely (i.e. full 180) after years of use. There just hasn't been an argument as to why changing the M36 back to low RoF/High damage makes sense.

You both are absolutely right on this, I must have mixed it up somehow. I'll edit the original post.

That mistake's on me!

After all those theorycrafting around making Puma hard countering Jackson, can we have the same about Su76 hard countering Panther?

After all those theorycrafting around making Puma hard countering Jackson, can we have the same about Su76 hard countering Panther?

My suggested changes are intentionally designed to not make the puma a hard counter to the M36. They wouldn't even make the puma a soft-counter. At best, it would be a vague deterrent.

The setup:
There are no other units.

M36 at between 361 to 480hp, out of 640hp (56.4% to 75% hp)
M36 at vet 0
M36 front armor reduced to 110 from 130

Puma at 400 out of 400hp (100%)
Puma at vet 1
Puma moving accuracy mult from 0.5 to 0.6


The engagement:
Both are at max range, both moving at max speed (and stay this way the entire time).
The puma immediately lands it's vet 1 ability (45 muni), locking the M36 turret.
The puma moves out of the way of the M36's fixed turret
The puma continues to fire at the M36 for 15 seconds (duration of the ability)
15 seconds pass
The M36 can now fire on the Puma
The puma continues to fire on the M36
Another 32 seconds pass
There is a 50:50 chance as to which unit survives


You may confused my actual suggestion (above) with my terrible suggestion (below), which still only makes the puma a soft counter to the M36, at best.


Show Spoiler

After all those theorycrafting around making Puma hard countering Jackson, can we have the same about Su76 hard countering Panther?

Indeed if you lower the armour of the M36 by 20, the Puma will hard counter it.

1000000000000000000 IQ