State of the Soviets

I'm working on a stats post as well; I have some more games than the guy on reddit, so my numbers are somewhat different. I'm always a bit skeptical about drawing too many conclusions from this kind of data, in particular given the small sample size, but if you want to it actually looks like OH is the outlier, not SOV.

Checking out matchups you'll find that SOV, USF and OKW trade about reasonably even, but OH does relatively poor against both SOV and USF...

And since the Ostheer is the best designed faction and the one that should be used as "benchmark" it is the rest of the faction that are op and should be nerfed. PLS no more power creep.

I feel like this is the point when a reasonable thread goes completely overboard. Maybe calm down and wait for Siphon's numbers before removing Soviets from the game?

Stock suggestion for Soviet:

Reduce the Power level of M3
Decrease power level.
Lower cost to 0-5 fuel, lower DPS, passenger no longer can shoot out of the vehicle.

Available upgrades:
"Drive by" cost 30-40 munition, passengers can now shoot out of the vehicle.
Other changes:
OKW get Faust at truck build not set up, generally OKW tech unlock should come with truck built not set since time varies from truck placement.

Passenger no longer die on vehicle destroyed, they receive RNG damage and stun or suppress.

Penal
Decrease power level.
Cost down to 280 built time reduced, come with 4 mosin 2 SVT, satchel removed, PTRS removed. SVT profile changed to be good at mid but worse at max closer to M1 profile.
PTRS change to have lower reaction time.

Available upgrades:
"Research demolition charges" requires tech to unlock, gives access to demo for Penal and CE. CE can be re-balanced.

"AT upgrade" requires tech to unlock, gives access to PTRS AT satchel, AT satchel no longer causes critical only damage. At some a threshold was introduced so that vehicles would not run from infatry, there is little reason to have 1 shot engine engine damage available.

"AI upgrade" give 4 access to 4 SVT.

Personal preference, remove PTRS upgrade, introduce a separate AT dedicated AT squad like AT conscripts 2 PTRS AT grenades no ourah/merge, maybe "hit the ground" so it can still fire back vs AAHT. (The doctrinal option could improve this squad 3 PTRS camo and AT volley).

Conscripts:
Remove 7 men upgrade.

Available upgrades:
"Soviet conscription" available from t3 or T4 with a tech cost universals upgrade for all conscripts the XP/reinforcement bonuses only.


Personal preference, redesign Penal conscript as offensive/defensive infatry.

T-70
Decrease power level.
Cheaper less lethal


M5 Qaud
Decrease power level.
Cheaper less lethal, reduce AA capability, possibly move suppression to separate upgrade or make it a timed ability.

SU-76
Replace vet 1 tracking with barrage, Fix XP value.

SU-85
Replace vet 1 focus sight ability now scale with veterancy, providing less sight at vet 1. Vet bonuses overhaul.

T-34/76
Tone down MG damage, "ram" replace by "full speed" a "skill" shot making the tank move straight fast. At vet 1 it can "ram" on collision ability scales with veterancy.

Doctrinal changes:
Remove Radio intercept, IL strafe/Bombing, Mark target, ATG camo from IS-2/IS-152 commanders.

If this units remain so dominant they rest of the abilities should be weaker.
(same changes suggested for other factions.)

This is codguy levels of out of touch with reality.

And since the Ostheer is the best designed faction and the one that should be used as "benchmark" it is the rest of the faction that are op and should be nerfed. PLS no more power creep.

Easier to buff 1 faction than to nerf 4.

Easier to buff 1 faction than to nerf 4.

Inb4 a list of delusional reasons why you are wrong.
And Stormjäger pretty much nailed it.
However no surprise he does want to remove M3 from the game, he is completely helpless against it and doesn't know any counterplay to it.

Easier to buff 1 faction than to nerf 4.

Not it is not, because of the a thing called power creep.

One has to decide the power level of units and balance the game around that power level, else he keeps buffing units until core mechanism of the game become pointless.


Allied TDs is a prime example of that, having a chance to hit and penetrate of 100% at max range vs most units making accuracy and armor mechanism pointless.

Buffing need to stop, (actually it should had to stop a couple of year ago) and nerfing should start.

Stock suggestion for Soviet:

Reduce the Power level of M3
Decrease power level.
Lower cost to 0-5 fuel, lower DPS, passenger no longer can shoot out of the vehicle.

Available upgrades:
"Drive by" cost 30-40 munition, passengers can now shoot out of the vehicle.
Other changes:
OKW get Faust at truck build not set up, generally OKW tech unlock should come with truck built not set since time varies from truck placement.

Passenger no longer die on vehicle destroyed, they receive RNG damage and stun or suppress.

Dead unit. Want rebalance? Or make it like bren carrier or make it like kuble (fast, cheap unit with recon for fast decap). With what you suggested it will be dead unit. You need spend 100 ammo to get ability shot from open-top vehicle from flamer? For squishy, low armored unit?

Penal
Decrease power level.
Cost down to 280 built time reduced, come with 4 mosin 2 SVT, satchel removed, PTRS removed. SVT profile changed to be good at mid but worse at max closer to M1 profile.
PTRS change to have lower reaction time.

Available upgrades:
"Research demolition charges" requires tech to unlock, gives access to demo for Penal and CE. CE can be re-balanced.

"AT upgrade" requires tech to unlock, gives access to PTRS AT satchel, AT satchel no longer causes critical only damage. At some a threshold was introduced so that vehicles would not run from infatry, there is little reason to have 1 shot engine engine damage available.

"AI upgrade" give 4 access to 4 SVT.

Personal preference, remove PTRS upgrade, introduce a separate AT dedicated AT squad like AT conscripts 2 PTRS AT grenades no ourah/merge, maybe "hit the ground" so it can still fire back vs AAHT. (The doctrinal option could improve this squad 3 PTRS camo and AT volley).

The higher cost from all mainline infantries and besides need building? 4 man? Need additional unique only for them upgrades? Downgraded version of grens, but with higher cost and with payable upgrades?

Conscripts:
Remove 7 men upgrade.

Available upgrades:
"Soviet conscription" available from t3 or T4 with a tech cost universals upgrade for all conscripts the XP/reinforcement bonuses only.


Personal preference, redesign Penal conscript as offensive/defensive infatry.

And they still need pay for upgrades lolotovs and at-nades as new penals? Right? Who will be mainline infantry for SU? Now you can play through cons, because you know that you can fight in late against vetted, upgraded axis infantry and don't lost map pressure. With these...i don't know. Only if your upgrade don't lock weapon slot and it's global (buy 1 time for all and for news guys too). But will want you deal with svt cons or ppsh cons with lower cost reinforcement?

T-70
Decrease power level.
Cheaper less lethal

How you will deal with axis infantry when they will got mg-42 adn stg-44?

M5 Qaud
Decrease power level.
Cheaper less lethal, reduce AA capability, possibly move suppression to separate upgrade or make it a timed ability.

Dead unit. It already have removed "on-moved suppresion", you need pay 90 muni for quad and another muni for supression? Maybe for flame-ht and flak-ht make the same? Fuel in fuel tank of flame-ht need to be repayed by muni. Want suppression for flak-ht pay muni. Don't you think that it will be dead units?

SU-76
Replace vet 1 tracking with barrage, Fix XP value.

How often you see current su-76 in games? I almost never. You can also rewatch 1vs1 tournament, try to find it.

SU-85
Replace vet 1 focus sight ability now scale with veterancy, providing less sight at vet 1. Vet bonuses overhaul.

How scale? Debuff still the same? How you want cahnge vet? Don't forget, su-85 - turretless TD. Only one stock armored unit in SU roster that can deal with panthers and KT.

T-34/76
Tone down MG damage, "ram" replace by "full speed" a "skill" shot making the tank move straight fast. At vet 1 it can "ram" on collision ability scales with veterancy.

And how you will be deal with infantry? How ram scales? It will be destroy enemy gun and engine on vet2,vet3? Or maybe only stun, but your tank also get stunned, but without cripple gun and engine?

Doctrinal changes:
Remove Radio intercept, IL strafe/Bombing, Mark target, ATG camo from IS-2/IS-152 commanders.

If this units remain so dominant they rest of the abilities should be weaker.
(same changes suggested for other factions.)

You want rebalance ALL factions in game and tones of commanders as well?

Dead unit....

Cheese should be removed.

The higher cost from all mainline infantries and besides need building? ..

Read more carefully, they would still be 6 men

..
And they still need pay for upgrades lolotovs and at-nades as new penals?

Read more carefully, the upgrade would universal, no more munition to get the upgrade

...
How you will deal with axis infantry when they will got mg-42 adn stg-44?

Combined arm or superior numbers.

Dead unit. It already have removed "on-moved suppresion", you need pay 90 muni for quad and another muni for supression?

Read more carefully, the upgrade would be cheaper, so it would be easier to get AA for soviets.

How often you see current su-76 in games?

Your point?

How scale?

Gradually with veterancy, without getting one of the best gun in the games with oen of the fastest reload and one of the highest penetration and the ability to spot to around 90 range.

And how you will be deal with infantry? ..

Gradually with veterancy

You want rebalance ALL factions in game and tones of commanders as well?

Want to remove power combo form all factions.

Power is a relative thing.

Power Creep is an issue in games where units don't get patched where it's a means to make older content obsolete over time.

That's not the case here.

Read more carefully, the upgrade would universal, no more munition to get the upgrade

I understand right, that molotovs, at-nades and "this" upgrade - 1 big upgrade and it only could be build in T3 or T4? No more early molotos and at-nades?

Combined arm or superior numbers.

What about maxim? it still in old state? How deal with superior numbers when your infantry have the same cost as enemy?

Your point?

Arty support unit as i said before.

Want to remove power combo form all factions.

Maybe make all faction identical, but with different skins?

Power is a relative thing.

Power Creep is an issue in games where units don't get patched where it's a means to make older content obsolete over time.

That's not the case here.

It is, new you get buffed and then the "old" one needs buff also. And that is was it suggested. Buffing Ostheer more although they recently received a number of buffs like:
Better ostwind
earlier Pgs
DR in grenadier

It is not the Ostheer that need buffs or even the UKF that need buffes. It the OKW/Soviet/USF that need nerf.

Most of the suggestions are about reducing "cheese" and reducing Power level (cheaper but less strong units).

There is little reason to go into details in this thread thou.

It is, new you get buffed and then the "old" one needs buff also. And that is was it suggested. Buffing Ostheer more although they recently received a number of buffs like:
Better ostwind
earlier Pgs
DR in grenadier

It is not the Ostheer that need buffs or even the UKF that need buffes. It the OKW/Soviet/USF that need nerf.

Same thing.

Balance is relative. Buffing OST and UKF has the same effect as nerfing SOV, OKW and USF.

The difference is one approach involves adjusting two factions and one approach involves adjusting three.

Same thing.

Balance is relative. Buffing OST and UKF has the same effect as nerfing SOV, OKW and USF.

The difference is one approach involves adjusting two factions and one approach involves adjusting three.

No it is not.

Buffing Ostheer/UKF would mean that they one would try balance units on higher power level.

Nerfing OKW/Soviet/USF would mean balancing in lower power level.

The difference is that game mechanics would have more time to work. How much more can the FF be buffed since it can already hit and penetrate a PzIV with 100% chance from range 60 and can delete it one reload with Tullips before PzIV become obsolete?

Balance is relative to something, a benchmark and in this case it was the Ostheer.
And it should be used once more as the benchmark.

No it is not.

Buffing Ostheer/UKF would mean that they one would try balance units on higher power level.

Nerfing OKW/Soviet/USF would mean balancing in lower power level.

The difference is that game mechanics would have more time to work. How much more can the FF be buffed since it can already hit and penetrate a PzIV with 100% chance from range 60 and can delete it one reload with Tullips before PzIV become obsolete?

You're talking about lethality. That's a separate issue.

You can lower lethality by buffing survivability.

You're talking about lethality. That's a separate issue.

You can lower lethality by buffing survivability.

No I am taking about both power level and lethality. I doubt MOD would be willing to increase the
"survivability" of all units instead of lowering the damage output of some.

The majority of recent patches have been buffs it is time for nerf.

No I am taking about both power level and lethality.

The majority of recent patches have been buffs it is time for nerf.

It's all relative.