Zis Barrage

Combing back to rof. Generally the difference is insignificant. You absorb the same number of shots and retreat with a vehicle. Doesn't really matter if it is zis or pak or 6pounder or USF at.

Actually, it makes for a massive difference, 1 shot might be insignificant, what can you do in 1 second, right?

However 3-5 seconds make a huge difference and its these follow ups that rack the time difference in time to kill up, which puts PaK at vastly superior spot, if you land stun shot as well, its pretty much guaranteed kill on medium, while ZiS can only scare tank away on its own.

Agree with all the points. The problem is that it counters it's counters and requires you to micro. You never leave zis alone and it is supported. Attacking zis will mean you have to deal with support AND the barrage. And that is the problem - in real game scenario a prey will throw a grenade at the predator. If support is where it should be attackers have much harder time and the barrage will turn the engagement in your favour. Adding larger crews zis guns are really difficult to dislodge. Vet 1 would be a good idea.

Combing back to rof. Generally the difference is insignificant. You absorb the same number of shots and retreat with a vehicle. Doesn't really matter if it is zis or pak or 6pounder or USF at.

In your scenario, the zis would just be treated as a quasi mortar, meaning that an actual mortar would pretty convincingly deal with the problem. It is still fairly ineffectual as a mortar replacement. It cant deal with garrisons or counter barrages (and it shouldn't). If both sides have the same# of squads and mgs, and it it's a zis vs a mortar, the mortar wins. Better accessabity to cqc units further tips the balance.
You're right that the differences in rof is essentially negligible, but only if you are talking about mediums. A pak will deal with high HP and armor targets far better than the zis will.

Actually, it makes for a massive difference, 1 shot might be insignificant, what can you do in 1 second, right?

However 3-5 seconds make a huge difference and its these follow ups that rack the time difference in time to kill up, which puts PaK at vastly superior spot, if you land stun shot as well, its pretty much guaranteed kill on medium, while ZiS can only scare tank away on its own.

I play with both and the seem really similar. Stun shots used to be good. What is the difference in the rate of fire?

In your scenario, the zis would just be treated as a quasi mortar, meaning that an actual mortar would pretty convincingly deal with the problem.

Well, you have to invest a lot of manpower to buy a mortar. This is not my scenario - it is just what happens - you want to attack zis with infantry, or even worse with an mg and you are made to retreat. Zis is a very good offenbsive weapon supporting a push. You can use it to dislodge an mg and scare vehicles away.

It is still fairly ineffectual as a mortar replacement. It cant deal with garrisons or counter barrages (and it shouldn't). If both sides have the same# of squads and mgs, and it it's a zis vs a mortar, the mortar wins.

I agree with the above. But this is not what I meant. A mortar is a mortar and we are speaking of an at gun. In real game scenarios it will make short work of an mg FASTER than a mortar. It will also deal with garrisons pretty well. Mortars usually take longer time to do that.

Better accessabity to cqc units further tips the balance.

It is the Soviets that have better accessibility to such units. With ostheer it is only very expensive panzergrens who are just four models.

You're right that the differences in rof is essentially negligible, but only if you are talking about mediums. A pak will deal with high HP and armor targets far better than the zis will.

Pak won't deal with high HP much better. You need a wall of them as they bounce. Zis will do the job equally well, especially against chrchills and other tanks that like to close in. Better zis survivalability (mone models and cons merge) will usually let it land more shots. Paks will be decrewed earlier and are more difficult to recrew by 4 men squads.

Ost has a better barrrage actual nades and cqc inf non doc to deal perfectly fine with 6 men teams. The p4 can kill inf teams faster then t34 can. Axis inf have better dps to deal with bigger squads as well. You know they balanced it this way. You use mortars flanking inf nades etc to deal with at gun, nit just run towards them and fuck m up. Esp not when supported.
If you cant do that its on you. If you stay still and get hit by the barrage its on you. its no excuse to nerf the zis.

Ost has only 4 men and 340 manpower panzergrens - very fragile compared to Soviets and often dropping models. They are good but looking at their cost penals, for example, are better.

P4 is not that better at killing inf teams (especially when they are larger). Again looking at the cost difference, t3476 is a better tank to do deal with mg42 or even an unsupported pak (+ fewer models on them) than p4. I don;t even want to mention how potent t70 is against them.

The zis and pak start out simaler vs mediums. The fact ost and axis in general has a far easier time getting heavier armour somehow elludes you. At that moment the difference in zis and pack become clear. The pak will penn easier still. Can support armour better because of its vet ability. The zis falls behind in at at that point.

Not true. ZIS will support armour in exactly the same way or even better because it will be able to barrage supporting AT infantry squads, and will be able to stay longer under mortar/infantry fire. It wil also be merged into if there is a need to do so retaining its vet. Paks are cleared way more easily.

Now i know you will ignore this. no non doc nades no non doc ai upgrade, worse barrage on the mortar lower pen thus worse at prefornance vs higher armoured targets, all non doc still. Because docs fill in gaps as you should know. That is why the zis and also the su76 are multyrole.

The pen is around 2% higher on pak - it is nothing (bulletin level), and the only advantage it gives is that ppl keep repeating that pak is best - just a myth.

But you have a lot of non doc nades including powerful satchels. Fire grenades are great against team weapons and garrisons. Use it with hoorah and you close in on most targets. Also soviets are unique as they get very potent infatry squads with grenades in almost all commanders.

You say that weapon teams are its counter. And your inf gets raped by it. Again dont stand still dont walk into it. The barrage is for static targets, if your pgren volks whetever gets hit bye it you are unlucky or fucked up.

Of course you won't stay long in the place when the barrage happens. But you will probably take damage and it can deny capping and so on. It is another illogical argument. Everybody dodges grenades etc. We are only writing about the fact that the ability is still borderline OP and should be moved to vet1. Many players also believe that it is just too stron on a good AT weapon.

Sov do build more powerfull units to counter heavier armour because they need to every game. Axis can get 240 armour minumum every game. Soviets only via doctrines, other wise they are stuck at 160 armour.

But Soviets have SU85 stock to counter those heavioes. Remeber that heavies are expensive. Remember that stock, it is only OKW that has those heavies. Still it is not related to barrage as You seem to suggest it is.

The fact that only when some one else bring it up that the siz barrage is to potent, and only then you feel the same way says it all. You never noticed before. Because it has not been to potent since launch. They changed and nerfed it already last patch.

I noticed and used it successfuly. I would creep with an infantry covered zis and use it close range to get insta wipes. It is really easy, especially that it will also scare vehicles away.

And you can have 2 "cheap units" counter a expensive unit. Esp when their focus is mostly or completly ai or ai. And also when their total cost is equal or more then the single expensive unit.

That you think otherwise shows that you are an entitled indevidual. With no real interest in real balance. I am done talking with you.
Happy trolling sir.

This is just nonsense - I believe it is ok for 2 cheap units to counter an expensive unit - this is what I wrote. I don't know why you suggest otherwise.

I'm not trolling. You seem to be mixing a lot of irrelevant arguments related to other units when discussing ZIS barrage.

I play with both and the seem really similar. Stun shots used to be good. What is the difference in the rate of fire?

3,5 for PaK and 4,4 for ZiS
Wind up and wind down differences combined add another 0,75 sec for PaK and 1,25 sec for ZiS.

So in short, when ZiS shoots 3-4 shots, PaK will shoot 4-5, which is pretty significant difference.

3,5 for PaK and 4,4 for ZiS
Wind up and wind down differences combined add another 0,75 sec for PaK and 1,25 sec for ZiS.

So in short, when ZiS shoots 3-4 shots, PaK will shoot 4-5, which is pretty significant difference.

Thanks for the info. That is 0,9 sec or 1,4 if you add wind up/down. Not much imo - offset by larger crew.

I would be fine with the removal of the barrage in return for proper non-doctrinal grenades. How about Conscript Rifle nade unlock if you build T1 or 2 and a guard-grenade for Penals?

Because I don't really see why OST should be able to launch pin-point accurate no-fuse grenades at team weapons from long range when Soviets get nothing remotely like that.

The grenade discrepency is why I believe the ZIS barrage is fine as it is.

I would be fine with the removal of the barrage in return for proper non-doctrinal grenades. How about Conscript Rifle nade unlock if you build T1 or 2 and a guard-grenade for Penals?

Because I don't really see why OST should be able to launch pin-point accurate no-fuse grenades at team weapons from long range when Soviets get nothing remotely like that.

The grenade discrepency is why I believe the ZIS barrage is fine as it is.

We only thought of moving it to vet1. I really don't see the connection with grenades. It is a completely different story. What you are suggesting might lead to total imbalance. Hoorah, tripwire, molotovs, satchels, ptrs oenals with good at/ai combination, snipers vs 4 men squads, merge, etc. You really have a lot of unique tools as Soviets. There are ost players who would love to have satchels, flame nades, etc.

I'm not trolling. You seem to be mixing a lot of irrelevant arguments related to other units when discussing ZIS barrage.

You compare the the zis to be a semi mortar. Talking about that is irrelevant because. I bring up other stuff soviets lack and therefor have multyrole units. You ignore the rest of the faction when looking at the intended role of a unit in the faction. It not irrelevant to bring up why a unit can do certain thing and why it can do others.

You say satchals with very very long fuses do well vs weapon teams, same with mollies. They simply walk away before any damage is done.

You say penals are better flatout then pgrens just because of lower hp and 40 mp difference. Pgrens have lower hp but far better dps the closer they get, a nade with a far shorter timer and more range.

You only seem to focus on hp being supirior to dps. The fact the ost with the smaller squads and more expensive vehicles have better dps and nades then sov and better armoured with better dps vehicles then soviets as balance escapes you. Stop with the poor 4 men squad bs.

The p4 has a better main gun with higher dps and pen wich kills 2 or more models quite often and does not need to reley on it bow mg to do decent ai damage, meaning it does not need to turn its front towards the flanked atgun or whatever flanked weapon team. The p4 is more expensive and kills everthing better then a t34 76 does it can also outlast better then a t34 esp after vet 2. This is fact.
The t70 is potent because its an AI tank. It also come out last of all light tanks. But dies to a single teller. It better be good.

The siz cant stun/snare its targets. The zis does fire slower at higher armoured targets. The zis wont one shot wipe or 2 shot with any reliability any more. That aspect has been nerfed already. It still can as intended force off weapon teams and if lucky squads as well with the barrage to create an opening. Tracking gives some sight and map awareness to help push. Pio,s give bonus sight for free. If it wipes your stuff in one shot still its on you. Heal your units.

Yes the su85 is a heavy td, as it should be. Not just the kt has high armour non doc. The panther starts with 260 armour. Wich is heavy armour value. While being as mobile and having rof of mediums, it also has heavy crush a td pen and acc profile on top of a turret. And both axis get it non nondoc. Anything above 160 for soviets is doctrinal and mostly full tech locked. You still dont see that your only 2% difference is bs? You still wanna ignore the armour and dps advantidge axis have over sov non doc?

Whenever i play or watch games i see that paks and zisses are wiped at about equal numbers. Options to deal with them are pretty much balanced on both sides. Wish i could say the same about the mg,s, but thats of topic.

When creeping up with a zis wipe a team or squad and still hold of vehicles while doing so on its on is bs. Your opponent must be sleeping. Or you used combined arms to protect it, and you leave that part out on purpose meaning nothing wrong with the zis, but your poor 4 men squad lens acting up.

We only thought of moving it to vet1. I really don't see the connection with grenades. It is a completely different story. What you are suggesting might lead to total imbalance. Hoorah, tripwire, molotovs, satchels, ptrs oenals with good at/ai combination, snipers vs 4 men squads, merge, etc. You really have a lot of unique tools as Soviets. There are ost players who would love to have satchels, flame nades, etc.

And I am sure there are a lot of things that Soviets want that Wehr has. Like free nade tech, LMG unlocks, grenades, actual infantry AT weapons that can damage mediums and heavies instead of only tickling them, premium non doctrinal tanks etc.

But the connection with grenades is huge. Grenades allow you to turn Munitions resource into manpower bleed for the enemy and can kill squads in the blink of an eye. They often force retreats on full health units. This feature is entirely missing from the soviets non-doctrine line up, which is why the soviets get a field gun instead of an AT gun, to turn munitions into manpower bleed and force retreats just like rifle nades do.

And I am sure there are a lot of things that Soviets want that Wehr has. Like free nade tech, LMG unlocks, grenades, actual infantry AT weapons that can damage mediums and heavies instead of only tickling them, premium non doctrinal tanks etc.

But you started such comparisons - I was just replying. I don;t agree with 'free' abilities for ost. They have to tech up to build a structure - they pay twice. Instead aother factions (such as soviets) have to pay for molotovs and at nades. It is simple - what you are trying to prove here ('free' nades etc.) is close o manipulation.

But the connection with grenades is huge. Grenades allow you to turn Munitions resource into manpower bleed for the enemy and can kill squads in the blink of an eye. They often force retreats on full health units. This feature is entirely missing from the soviets non-doctrine line up, which is why the soviets get a field gun instead of an AT gun, to turn munitions into manpower bleed and force retreats just like rifle nades do.

These are basics everybody knows. You want to turn munitions into manpowerbleed using very potent zis barrage - that is simply too much for an at gun. Use units that are designed to deal with infantry - not at guns.

Coming back to ZIS - it used to be much worse at dealing with tanks compared to pak (original game design with Sov being much less specialist but having more utility - then barrage made sense). Pak got nerfed over the years (stun shot for example), while zis got beter at at duties. It stil retained its utility (larger crew and barrage). It is too potent now when the AT performance is has is more than satisfactory.

But you started such comparisons - I was just replying. I don;t agree with 'free' abilities for ost. They have to tech up to build a structure - they pay twice. Instead aother factions (such as soviets) have to pay for molotovs and at nades. It is simple - what you are trying to prove here ('free' nades etc.) is close o manipulation.



These are basics everybody knows. You want to turn munitions into manpowerbleed using very potent zis barrage - that is simply too much for an at gun. Use units that are designed to deal with infantry - not at guns.

Coming back to ZIS - it used to be much worse at dealing with tanks compared to pak (original game design with Sov being much less specialist but having more utility - then barrage made sense). Pak got nerfed over the years (stun shot for example), while zis got beter at at duties. It stil retained its utility (larger crew and barrage). It is too potent now when the AT performance is has is more than satisfactory.

As I said earlier, it's fine to remove the Zis barrage, if the faction as a whole gets the ability to transfer munition into a suitable replacement ability like rifle nades on conscripts and guard nades on penals.

As I said earlier, it's fine to remove the Zis barrage, if the faction as a whole gets the ability to transfer munition into a suitable replacement ability like rifle nades on conscripts and guard nades on penals.

I wouldn't like to remove it. Just move to vet 1. It is a cool feature.

It would be similar to stun from Pak in this respect.

Alternatives could include one more model on pak to balance the barrage by adding more pak survivaliability - but that is another problem.

I wouldn't tamper with grenades as here I don't agree with You completely. There are different grenades available for different faction. Soviets have stock molotovs and satchels. They can transfer muni into manpower. Check why Helping Hans lost one of his games.

I wouldn't like to remove it. Just move to vet 1. It is a cool feature.

It would be similar to stun from Pak in this respect.

Alternatives could include one more model on pak to balance the barrage by adding more pak survivaliability - but that is another problem.

I wouldn't tamper with grenades as here I don't agree with You completely. There are different grenades available for different faction. Soviets have stock molotovs and satchels. They can transfer muni into manpower. Check why Helping Hans lost one of his games.

Decrewing a zis is not hard. Esp since wiping potential of nades is something ost does not lack. Like i said before. Zis and pak get wiped just as much as the other.

Once the tech is done grens and pgrenz have acces to those 100% if we follow your suggestion in removing tracking and making arty vet 1. soviet will reley on vet to be able to arty or break up a defensive position/cause instant bleed. while ost can do it all the time along side their ai upgrade and free no micro extra vision on their pio,s.

You keep saying poor 4 men ost while ignoring all the stuff they have over sov. If you gut the arty ability wich is what you are suggesting something needs to be given or taken in return.

Decrewing a zis is not hard. Esp since wiping potential of nades is something ost does not lack. Like i said before. Zis and pak get wiped just as much as the other.

not true - it is easier to decrew a pak

Once the tech is done grens and pgrenz have acces to those 100% if we follow your suggestion in removing tracking and making arty vet 1. soviet will reley on vet to be able to arty or break up a defensive position/cause instant bleed. while ost can do it all the time along side their ai upgrade and free no micro extra vision on their pio,s.

I'm only speaking of moving it to vet 1!

You keep saying poor 4 men ost while ignoring all the stuff they have over sov. If you gut the arty ability wich is what you are suggesting something needs to be given or taken in return.

No - it doesn't mean that. Pak and stug got their stun shot nerfed to oblivion. So should zis stop being so potent at dealing with infantry. Soviets are currently stronger than ost.

not true - it is easier to decrew a pak



I'm only speaking of moving it to vet 1!



No - it doesn't mean that. Pak and stug got their stun shot nerfed to oblivion. So should zis stop being so potent at dealing with infantry. Soviets are currently stronger than ost.

Take off the axis up poor 4 men glasses. Stop ignoring the lack of potent nades ai upgrades and mostly lower dps on sov non doc.

Moving it to vet is gutting it. What is supposed to happen to tracking? And unlike you claim zis is wiped as often as the pak. Meaning reearning the barrage takes every time. Severely happering bleed potential on the sov side.

Twp was nerfed because it garanteed a kill on mediums and below if a pak was supported by any other at source, by stunlocking them in place infront of the at sources. For a small muni fee to garatee a kill on a medium is op.
Tracking and barrage dont garantee a wipe in the slightest there for not op.

Take off the axis up poor 4 men glasses. Stop ignoring the lack of potent nades ai upgrades and mostly lower dps on sov non doc.

You have glasses - not me. I play Soviets. Do you play ostheer?

You don't connect price with performance, and just expect cheaper squads to deal equal damage to more expensive ones. You ignore facts, not me.

Moving it to vet is gutting it. What is supposed to happen to tracking? And unlike you claim zis is wiped as often as the pak. Meaning reearning the barrage takes every time. Severely happering bleed potential on the sov side.

You are simply wrong. More men crewing it means they are less likely to wipe. Consript merge ability also makes it less likely to get wiped. Barrage that can fend off infantry makes them less likely to get wiped. What is there to not understand? You keep negating facts. That is trolling - the thing you accused me of.

Twp was nerfed because it garanteed a kill on mediums and below if a pak was supported by any other at source, by stunlocking them in place infront of the at sources. For a small muni fee to garatee a kill on a medium is op.

I know why it was nefed. But this was the moment when paks and stugs became much less potent. Pak became a standard AT in the game. The nerf to pak should have been connected with adjusting all AT guns across the board. Of course allied fanboys don't like the idea of touching their armies and derail the game balance. The worst part is that you keep ignoring basic facts.

Tracking and barrage dont garantee a wipe in the slightest there for not op.

You are wrong. They depleate health so much that often they guarantee a kill. If you shoot close range at a support weapon (could be a pak) that is not full health you are very likely to kill it.

You have glasses - not me. I play Soviets. Do you play ostheer?

You don't connect price with performance, and just expect cheaper squads to deal equal damage to more expensive ones. You ignore facts, not me.



You are simply wrong. More men crewing it means they are less likely to wipe. Consript merge ability also makes it less likely to get wiped. Barrage that can fend off infantry makes them less likely to get wiped. What is there to not understand? You keep negating facts. That is trolling - the thing you accused me of.



I know why it was nefed. But this was the moment when paks and stugs became much less potent. Pak became a standard AT in the game. The nerf to pak should have been connected with adjusting all AT guns across the board. Of course allied fanboys don't like the idea of touching their armies and derail the game balance. The worst part is that you keep ignoring basic facts.



You are wrong. They depleate health so much that often they guarantee a kill. If you shoot close range at a support weapon (could be a pak) that is not full health you are very likely to kill it.

I never said sov up. I never said cheaper should be equal in preformance. I said sov lack certain things like ost does. You whine about ost suffering more wipes because of lower hp.
I countered by saying they have actual nades ai upgrades higher dps or bonus vision to cover that weaknes.
Price is not only preformance its also timing esp in the early game.

More men facing fewer men with better dps and nades or tanks with higher dps then their own. Do the math please. You think they have the same dps as ost units.
A bundle nade can word off pssh cons or shock from attacking and forcing off a pgren the bundle is op now? According to you it is.
Ost on the field healing and more reinforce options can keep the pak on the field longer. Dont act like those dont excist.

Because the op ability of the pak got nerfed the other atguns must be nerfed to? Entitlement at its finest.

If you can get a zis into the face of a target at short range and barrage it the opponent must sleeping or ai. If he can do that to you its the same.

I do play ost about as much you play soviets probably. I dont consider myself a fanboy. I do counter crybaby,s of any kind. You and your buddy are on a axis is up crusade its only allies op and dont look at the down sides of allies. You go about and screem axis up poor 4 men squads every where, you ignore the balanced out fact and cry some more.

If people dont counter crusasders like you we get the shit we got years back.

I never said sov up. I never cheaper should be equal in preformance. I said sov lack certain things like ost does. You whine about ost suffering more wipes because of lower hp.
I countered by saying they have actual nades ai upgrades higher dps or bonus vision to cover that weaknes.
Price is not only preformance its also timing esp in the early game.

You basically keep mixing imo lots of irrelevant stuff to a discussion on zis barrage. The idea to move it to vet 1 makes a lot of sense and will not tip the overall balance much. It would just make it a tiny bit more even.

All the above is connected with the fact that zis got much better at AT duties if you compare it to what it was like when the game was introduced. At the same time pak lost its AT advantage to a large extend and lost the ability to stop vehicles from retreating. It created imbalance when it comes to price/performance values of both units. Zis is very effective (larger crew, good AT performance, ability to deplete health of support weapons and infantry far range; can be combined with merge from cons to make it even more durable). To sum up, you should make it more expensive or, for example, move barrage to vet 1.