Changing the way MGs work

First of all Hi to everyone,as I'm on about to make this post I want to tell you that I'm 1200 hours into this game and I've played since cohv which was my most favorite action strategy game of all times.

First of all,I don't want advice on how to counter mgs(I already know.),I don't want you to tell me oh don't walk into them if they become an issue and listen to what I have to say.

I fairly think that an german mg cost as much as an conscript squad ,has a wide arc and can pindown really easily any unit in his sight forcing them to retreat or suffer losses without having the change to fight back once you're pinned down which happens in 0,5 secs from when mg started to shoot at you.

This is not how real life works! not even in war,soldiers don't just sit there all day long with they head in the sand and dirt and waits for machine gun to shoot at them and kill them one by one,even if they are in a pinch situation they will find a way to shoot back do something while taking cover,not running back home through mg fire like scarred humans because that would get them more killed than actually having a chance to be alive.

Why is 6/10 werch players heavily spamming mg especially in 2 v 2 and up,like the whole battleground becomes an insta pindown altilerry battlefield which is not fun and stresfull as fuck,do you have fun making tetris with mgs and put them behind eachother for more protection? do you enjoy sipping your coffe and starring at your mg how it pins and kills enemy troops? is it a fun game aspect for you? I'm asking because it's actually terrible how many people who play germans relly on their mg suppresion for their lack of skill or creativity in this game.


What do I think it needs to change for the mg's for the sake of making this game more fun and tactical:
I actually have 2 or more suggestions which are all good and very balanced.

1.Let mg's the way the are now but unlock all of them into tier 1 like okw.
-This is the lamest suggestion but I would still prefer this than to play against a player who just poops up mgs(it's not fun,I don't enjoy playing with mg spam or fighting against it).




2.Reduce the suppresion alot but improve the accuracy of the mg's so he infantry are still being pinned but they shoot back at the mg they don't just sit like ducks waiting to be shot,you can also make an ability to spend ammo and make the mg's shoot as fast as they can for better suppresion for a limited time but that's all ,they don't need to be terminators which are countered by mortars and vehichles only.
- If you make players spend ammo on their mg to pindown as they are doing right now in the game you make them think twice before spamming more than 2 mgs and you also make them to choose when to use the pindown ability or not! ,It's a tactical decision and it actually makes me respect the mg players if it's implemented.



3.Often in fights when you try to flank mg's if you're still in the big range of german mg and he shoots 2 bullets your squad will be pinned down for 3 seconds or more and the squad that's still alive and its not being shoot at,it stays pinned for 8 seconds.I FEEL LIKE THEY STAY TOO MUCH WITH THEIR FACE IN THE GROUND AND DO NOTHING ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY KNOW FROM WHERE IS MG SHOOTING AND THEY JUST SIT THERE WAITING FOR MG TO SHOOT BACK (Remember D-day,those americans fought on the beach against multiple mg's and they died but still manage to win,you're the commander and you choose your units to fight and suffer bleed or retreat and loose territory and manpower).

I hopefully that someone understand me and the community takes my side I really wish for mg's to be changed ,it's ridiculous how they are implemented and it's very dumb,they should pin only the squad they're shooting at and ofcourse make others be scarred but not render anything usless,in this game retreating it's loosing because you loose territories,manpower and ammo and more than often players use mg spam because it's reliable and cheap,cost's no ammo and they're good at defending your territories.
I got tired of pin down I want it to be changed.

As I mentioned in my recent post that you can find and I used my suggestions,it's not about the counter and what needs to be done about mg's.

We need to tackle the player mentality who rely exclusevily on mg's without making them think twice before cliking on more than 1 mg at the start of the game.

First of all mg's should be costing ammo if you want them to shoot at max potential and pin down like german mg,second they should have less suppression and more accuracy,can you imagine in a real war scenario 15 soldiers sitting ducks in the range of an mg with their head in the dust getting killed without shooting back throwing nades or putting their hands on their head? and why would it save your units if you retreat them running home ,how are they not getting killed from the mg when they run back home ,they simply run through a rain of bullets.


Mg's need to be moved to tier 1 or 2 or it needs to be changed the way it works with the pindown mechaninc,make players spend 30 ammo for 15 secs of pindown or 20,make them less supressive and more accurate so infantry shoots back with less accuracy but they still do shoot back.

If an infantry is being shoot and pinned and the mg is shooting at the other ifantry,that infantry should immediatly start to fire at mg or throw grenades or anything because more than once I encountered my units staying pinned down for 6-8 secons from mg suppresion.


Yes I know german mg's are all superior and best muh gun ever but a bullet on your head would make that weapon usless,ok?,it's war ,on d-day allies went through multiple mg's and still won,it's a real war not girls simulator where they sit ducked in fear of being shoot.

CHANGE THE MENTALITY NOT THE COUNTERS!

/Moved thread

Reminder that just because you might agree or not with OP, it's fine for people to have different opinions.


Anyway:

Suppressed: dudes going prone. Less effective combat wise by moving slower, having half range on grenades and doing roughly 25% their normal damage. They can still shoot and use abilities.
While initially been suppressed your units are more resilience, hence receive less damage.

Pinned: your units cant receive any command outside of retreating. They won't shoot and they will start to get increased damage after some seconds.

Both terms are not equal.

Recovering from suppression:
If your unit is not behind cover, it will take longer to reduce suppression levels. If your unit is under combat, it will take longer as well. This means that if your unit is been shot my regular infantry, while the MG is doing something else, it will take way more time to recover than having no enemy in the area.

Actually no, soldiers absolutely would eat the dirt, even during D-Day they won ultimately because of excellent support, poor german supply, and generally CRAWLING towards their objective.

In the game, the HMG's purpose is to lock down an area, generally 2 squads is all you need to beat it as long as you don't blob. That brings us to our second point, HMGs act as the main and earliest method of blob control, without the suppression, how are blobs meant to be kept in check? Do you suggest buffing the HMG's damage output to be able to contest against 3-4 squads at once? That would make them far more broken mechanically since they'd delete lone squads.

You didn't want advice, so I'll just say l2p, even if MG42 spam can be absolute cancer.

TL;DR Ching chong your opinion is wrong.

It's only really a problem on big team game maps where the enemy knows where you are coming from, and where running into an mg puts your squad out of action for a long time due to walking distances. In those sorts of games it's generally best to open with a snipe and get an early mortars to push the HMGs away rather than making 3-4 infantry squands and trying to flank.

CoH 2's mechanics are abstractions of reality: it's not a simulation.

If CoH 2 were realistic, every man in those infantry squads would be dead seconds after stepping into that machine gun's cone of fire.

And they know this, so the moment they so much as hear that machine gun they'd duck behind whatever they could find and not stick their heads up until it stops firing. That's not called cowardice, that's called not being a fucking moron.

The machine gunners know this, and that's why they're filling the air with bullets: their goal isn't to kill the enemy but to pin them down.

In CoH 2 this is represented by the suppression mechanic.

Another day, another pointless “x axis unit op” thread. Yawn.

Hello again,I'm glad to see people invested in this topic and give me replies,I welcome you all even if the opinion differ from eachother.

First of all about the guys who said to me l2p or that I should bring a mortar,sniper ,flank ,I already told you that it's not a post on how to counter,I know that is not an issue for experienced elite players even tough I could see new players and middle ones having their cancerest day and all of their mood ruined by mg's spam players and that really sadness me.

What made vanilla coh so much better is that from all my games there of 4 years I barely encountered players with more than 2 mg's and also I remember there having the most fun infantry dynamic battles,now why people didn't used mg as much as they use in coh 2 is because they were generally locked in tier 1 and also bunker too and I liked that idea more.

My suggestion were not final,It's up to the developers if they want to counter the mentality of mg spammers who rely on on heavy power and they know it's good for them.

Why it costs only 240 manpower and no ammo?,It requires almost nothing to take one in the battlefield with you and you can sucesfully make the enemy afraid of pushing foward without a mortar or flanking(which is not always a counter,because not all maps have covers or can be flanked so easily and usually some to mg and another one,I can recall many times when I flanked an mg and from behind it was a bunker or another mg.)

I want this game to be skilled and I want players to manage their squads and realise sitting in the same position while facing an army of hungry soviets would get you killed,In real life if you were an machinegunner would you sit in an open area with 3 squads of 5 men and automatic machine guns whom shoot at you from all direction and fire your machine gun? would you suicide for the fatherland?

My only issue with them is that they're really cheap,30 more manpower than a kubbelwagen,they don't need veterancy to pin down units,they don't need ammo or anything to pindown units and they secure points especially fuel points way too easily,also werchmath have panzerfaust on grens from the beggining without any unlock requirement too.

Would you rather not have people use skill when they use an hmg? do you just like the whole idea of camping and shooting when this game is too beautifull for it to be played like that.

All I asked is to introduce a mechanic where:
- your hmg needs atleast vet 1 to suppress better units.

- change the suppresion for example they need to be 3 seconds under heavy fire for units to get suppresed but the hmg have bettet accuracy so it's a good tradeoff for how cheap and effective it is,spending nades ,smoke(which are locked on allies) on 240 manpower would only make the enemy have more ammo to deal with your infantry sections later.

-unlock the hmg in tier 1 (it's more lame but do you really need hmg in the beggining of the game?why do you need it so much,because you know how effective it is?,I don't want new players exeperience to be ruined more than mine has been ruined by those hmg which are god rays of pin down).

-Something needs to be done with them or about them,I don't want them to be nerfed or buffed but it's so common for germans to use hmgs while alliance use hmgs way less than axis because their hmg's don't supress as good,don't have a wider range as big as german hmg or they're just simply unlocked behind tier 1.

-Let's make all of our experience better in this game and less painfull because this community deserve it,we are all grown men with jobs ,some of us have a family,you want to come home and have a beautifull skilled game where you see infantry going against eachother,fighting ,throwing skilled nades,there are so many infantry types vechiles and whatever you can use,mg's will be there too but not from the beggining or if from beggining alteast get them veterancy on make them spend ammo.

Another day, another pointless “x axis unit op” thread. Yawn.

Your arguments are as good as your name sir frauline.

Your arguments are as good as your name sir frauline.

I don’t argue with rank 3000 players who want to change core mechanics, it’s like trying to discuss physics with a log of wood.

Why is 6/10 werch players heavily spamming mg especially in 2 v 2 and up

Because noobs who can't do anything else except blobbing infantry into heavy tanks can't counter it despite having all the tools needed.

I don’t argue with rank 3000 players who want to change core mechanics, it’s like trying to discuss physics with a log of wood.

speak for yourself,nobody invited you to the discussion,you don't bring any arguments and you make yourself sound like you're right,that's not how arguments work bro.

Why are you so offended that I talk about changing a feature or two about mg's? if you're pro you can counter right ;') ? please keep your toxicity away from this post,I expect nothing less from people with the name stormjager tough.

And you don't even know my rank.

And you don't even know my rank.

Struggling against HMG spam gives it away - its low and its team games only.

And you don't even know my rank.

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198170309671

L2P and mgs won’t be a problem anymore.

Struggling against HMG spam gives it away - its low and its team games only.

You underestimate my capacity to find what is hidden.

Sir frauline can you actually bring me arguments why are you against the features that I proposed rather than actually say l2p? those are not arguments again! if you can't bring arguments why the mg's need to stay the way they are and you would not want them to be in tier 1 or cost some ammo or anything which requirest more skill then please stop crying on chat and other chats save axis from these "people" who cry axis is op because that's not the main goal of my post and if you think that axis can win with only mg's you're part of the problem along with all the people who spam them.

Sir frauline can you actually bring me arguments why are you against the features that I proposed rather than actually say l2p? those are not arguments again! if you can't bring arguments why the mg's need to stay the way they are and you would not want them to be in tier 1 or cost some ammo or anything which requirest more skill then please stop crying on chat and other chats save axis from these "people" who cry axis is op because that's not the main goal of my post and if you think that axis can win with only mg's you're part of the problem along with all the people who spam them.

I’m part of the problem when I don’t even start with mg42 as ostheer. Right.

Let’s review your arguments:

1) Put mg in T1, even though it was T1 and got put in T0 because riflemen wrecked Grens.

2) That’s the Vickers, deals more damage than suppression and UKF players want it changed.

3) You want me to spend ammo so my mg can do its job? lel

4) MG42 has garbage traverse speed, meaning if you attack from 2-3 directions it cannot turn fast enough. This is how good players counter it.

5) Your argument is that mgs should be bad because d-day was successful. I don’t know how to respond to that tbh.

My overall suggestion to you is to buy steel division 2, which is on sale atm, or just l2p and stop making pointless threads complaining about broken op mgs.

If you don't wanna argue with 3000 rank players then don't come here and argue,it's simple as that or learn how to argue first.

I never in my life played meta,I like to enjoy this game the way is meant to be played and I always like trying out new things,I don't play for the whole competitive purpose and I'm trying to have fun.

You don't say why youd think my propoal would affect rank games,you don't mention why top players would be against it,you actually do nothing because you're angry that I want mg to be moved in tier 1 and have it playing out differently.

It's your own personal issue and I understand that.

I like to enjoy this game the way is meant to be played

Then why do you want to change the core infantry > mortars > HMGs > infantry mechanic?

I’m part of the problem when I don’t even start with mg42 as ostheer. Right.

Let’s review your arguments:

1) Put mg in T1, even though it was T1 and got put in T0 because riflemen wrecked Grens.

2) That’s the Vickers, deals more damage than suppression and UKF players want it changed.

3) You want me to spend ammo so my mg can do its job? lel

4) MG42 has garbage traverse speed, meaning if you attack from 2-3 directions it cannot turn fast enough. This is how good players counter it.

5) Your argument is that mgs should be bad because d-day was successful. I don’t know how to respond to that tbh.

My overall suggestion to you is to buy steel division 2, which is on sale atm, or just l2p and stop making pointless threads complaining about broken op mgs.

- Grens cost 240 manpower,riflemen cost 280,grens have abilities already unlocked,rifleman have to spend ammo and fuel to unlock wepaons and grenades,rifleman also have 5 men in squad which in case of bleeding they have to reinforce more,also gren can win against riflemen in long combat and it isn't certain that always rifleman is better than gren.How nobody in cohv complained that grens are being beaten by rifleman and that they need mg42's to win?

-"You want me to spend ammo on my mg42 to do it's job",you want me to spend ammo and fuel on smokes and grenades for my infantry to put a bullet in your hmg?,the features I proposed are not nerfing the mg is to counter mg spam mentality,you if you think you should be able to acess something so powerfull at the start of the game which costs 240 manpower and barely micro then you're wrong and brits carrier,your grens have already faust unlocked since start of the game and it's 25 ammo,he can't repair his car unless he spends 30 ammo on repair which repair only half of the vicker.


-The mg42 doesn't have garbage traverse speed,what are you talking about? it can safely shoot a squad in the middle and another one in the rear and it instantly pins them down having the chance to reposition himself.

-if you think that wercmath infantry is inferior you're wrong,they are as cheap as conscripts,they're versatile and have lmgs upgrade,you can also bring panzergrenadiers or doctrine units on the battlefield and they're good,or just wait untill you come up with your pz4 or tanks,because if you say grens are worse than riflemen then why do axis tanks are better than allied tanks?

I could say the same thing about tanks that somehow german tanks are better than allied tanks,especially tigers but that's not the main goal, I could go a whole day to argue with this kind of mentality.

Oh but you have better infantry and I need hmgs oh I have better tanks you need better micro and at's.
You are already giving out arguments which are against manpower which is a valuable resource in this game.