Wehrmacht vs USF #BALANCE

Let's talk about Wehr 1v1 balance again.

What problem ? GG
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Red played better this game, what's wrong with balance here?

Let's talk about Wehr 1v1 balance again.

Alright, lets talk about it. Since you started this topic, you can start. What bothered you about this replay?

Alright, lets talk about it. Since you started this topic, you can start. What bothered you about this replay?

This replay bothers me because it feels like USF can just roflstomp WM on an given map without to even have to break a sweat to do so. It's infuriating that the USF on "autopilot" is able to push WM so hard, with no trade off whatsoever (before the rework with the heavies, despite having early game even more ridiculously weak as it is now, WM could stage a lategame comeback with Tigers. Now Tigers are efficient, but not enough to trade convincingly for such awful early game. It feels like the faction has to fight tooth and nail to just be able to reach midgame, and then, the match is still unfavorable. That's why i tend to post replays backing up what i am feeling about this issue. Reading katitof lately, i see he has a vision of the WM as a weak infantry army that snowballs into lategame potent armor. I do not see what's potent on WM armor anymore.

This replay infuriates me because it showcases perfectly how WM has to give it all just to stand a chance staying into the game, and the USF player has nothing to do to actually win. Of course, there's micro and all, but i don't think WM early game is less micro intensive as USF for that matter. This replay would have been golden if USF actually spent his fuel, and we had that result in the end: a hardly fought out game swinging from one player to the other. But as Dulluhan said on the board, this game illustrates "a US player playing shitty but still winning versus Ostheer"

That's my concern about balance in this game, i want all factions to match well. I uploaded other replays on this issue (that are not watchable anymore with last patch), with two USF vs WM matches, where USF lost 3-4 squad at the 15th minute into the game, and was still able to battle for map control, and delay the "deserved" WM win to 40-50 mins. That's not normal: should a player screw up, he should lose, plain and simple. Whatever faction that is. But WM is not treated equally in this issue: instead of snowballing with decent mid game efficient units, it crumbles completely as soon as one of its combined armes element is down.

Now what i see: if WM loses 2 squards at 15th minutes, it ends in a roflstomp at the 20th minute mark, but if USF loses 4, he's still able to fight back until 40th. And on that exact replay we have two ~equally matched players, with one pushing the faction to its limits while spending all ammo / fuel (and that's why i asked Dulluhan to review the game also, to have another point of view on the game), and the other just BMing with no teching, no armor, no nothing, and still winning with 1150 fuel in the end.

The map itself is the issue.I would always veto it,especially as OH.

I would like to analyse a replay.Find a game on a competitive map and i will try tell you what went wrong.

The map itself is the issue.I would always veto it,especially as OH.

I would like to analyse a replay.Find a game on a competitive map and i will try tell you what went wrong.

All right, i'll find a replay on Kholodny that showcases why OH is underpowered imo.

Shouldn't be hard to find, as i almost only see OH being stomped nowadays.

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I don't think you gave the replay an objective analysis there.

You can clearly see that RedWings has thought about how to play with this unique and rarely seen build. He is not auto-piloting anything. He clearly emphasized the VPs and ammo early on while neglecting his own fuel. You could see how this non-standard opening messed up Kryptics capping standard order; he was facing more resistance in areas where he would usually face a lot less. This led him to get overrun in certain areas and cut-off from resources early on.

In the midgame, Redwings went with a combination of riflemen, some zooks here and there, and he used the rarely seen and fairly weak Greyhound. Kryptic, having probably never seen this build before, reacted to it poorly. He slightly over-invested in AT by getting an AT-gun and a Puma. That AT gun was useless for the rest of the game and was just standing around costing upkeep for 40 minutes afterwards. Things wouldn't be so bad if he did not suicide all his pumas to take out ambulances instead of keeping the Pumas alive to deal with follow up greyhounds. This was a waste of fuel, which caused him to rely on command tanks for a long time before he could have a good enough buffer to tech to Ostwinds.

This strategy of Kryptic simply did not work because his unit composition was far from ideal. You can draw an analogy to OKW vs Soviets here. What Redwings did with USF is comparable to an OKW player going for G43 panzerfussie and Schrek Volks spam, with a sevearly downgraded panzer 2 mixed in a couple of times in the early game. What Kryptic did with Wehr is comparable to a Soviet trying to counter this composition with SU76s and nothing more than a single T34/76 at a time. This type of tank-composition simply does not work against what the enemy has on the field (little to no armor and lots of hand held AT weapons). The fact that Kryptic spend his fuel and Redwings did not is irrelevant, because Kryptic spend it on the wrong units and was very wasteful with these units for the first 40 minutes of the game.

As anyone who has used T34/76s against Schrekvolks knows, what Kryptic needed was an overwhelming armor count that would not get instantly pushed back by the zooks. In the end, Kryptic actually figured this out. He switched from the limited-to-1 command tank to fielding multiple Ostwinds. Result: Redwings got pushed of the field hard and fast, his army broken with no chance of recovery. The only reason why Redwings was able to take the win in the end was because it took Kryptic too long to figure out the proper counter to his opponents strategy and he was unprepared for the sneaky battlegroup drop that secured the last few VPs.

I don't think you gave the replay an objective analysis there.

You can clearly see that RedWings has thought about how to play with this unique and rarely seen build. He is not auto-piloting anything. He clearly emphasized the VPs and ammo early on while neglecting his own fuel. You could see how this non-standard opening messed up Kryptics capping standard order; he was facing more resistance in areas where he would usually face a lot less. This led him to get overrun in certain areas and cut-off from resources early on.

In the midgame, Redwings went with a combination of riflemen, some zooks here and there, and he used the rarely seen and fairly weak Greyhound. Kryptic, having probably never seen this build before, reacted to it poorly. He slightly over-invested in AT by getting an AT-gun and a Puma. That AT gun was useless for the rest of the game and was just standing around costing upkeep for 40 minutes afterwards. Things wouldn't be so bad if he did not suicide all his pumas to take out ambulances instead of keeping the Pumas alive to deal with follow up greyhounds. This was a waste of fuel, which caused him to rely on command tanks for a long time before he could have a good enough buffer to tech to Ostwinds.

This strategy of Kryptic simply did not work because his unit composition was far from ideal. You can draw an analogy to OKW vs Soviets here. What Redwings did with USF is comparable to an OKW player going for G43 panzerfussie and Schrek Volks spam, with a sevearly downgraded panzer 2 mixed in a couple of times in the early game. What Kryptic did with Wehr is comparable to a Soviet trying to counter this composition with SU76s and nothing more than a single T34/76 at a time. This type of tank-composition simply does not work against what the enemy has on the field (little to no armor and lots of hand held AT weapons). The fact that Kryptic spend his fuel and Redwings did not is irrelevant, because Kryptic spend it on the wrong units and was very wasteful with these units for the first 40 minutes of the game.

As anyone who has used T34/76s against Schrekvolks knows, what Kryptic needed was an overwhelming armor count that would not get instantly pushed back by the zooks. In the end, Kryptic actually figured this out. He switched from the limited-to-1 command tank to fielding multiple Ostwinds. Result: Redwings got pushed of the field hard and fast, his army broken with no chance of recovery. The only reason why Redwings was able to take the win in the end was because it took Kryptic too long to figure out the proper counter to his opponents strategy and he was unprepared for the sneaky battlegroup drop that secured the last few VPs.

That makes sense, thanks for taking the time to watch it and reply

Aerohank summed it up nicely there. Observed the match myself. It was quite clear that kryptic was going to lose at about the half hour mark since he just kept relying on Mobile defence for all of his units. And thing is. Mobile defence needs to work with non-doctrinal armour. Otherwise. It's just going to flounder about with no clear direction.

Oh Imperial Dane. You seem to say that WM is somewhat balanced. Do you really think USF - WM match up is fine ? Why do i witness something like 80% (if not more) USF stomping WM when i spectate high tier live games ?

There's a second replay showcasing what i'm trying to say here.

Granted there's a noticeable level gap between the players, but i couldn't notice it before uploading the replay. Anyway, that's how i feel like every USF - WM match ends: a one way stomp fest whatever the WM player tries.

PS: what really bothers me, is the inconsistency of all possible "explanations" from the guys who answer my threads. In some cases, it's the build order of the WM player that gets shot down, on some other cases it is the map not being vetoed. In the end, the result is the same: a faction that is pidgeonholed in playing 2 maps maybe 3, and gets shat on everything else, and almost every matchup. I don't care that some players are succesful with the faction, if there needs to be 30% higher skill level involved. I don't want WM to be the "noob killer" faction, i want it to be competitive when both players are equally matched. I don't think it is too much to ask.

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  Second WM 1v1 replay

  by: SlaYoU map: Kholodny Ferma

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Good analysis Hank & Dane

Saw that game live and disagree completely, since the entire analysis with regards to overall army competitiveness ignores the elephant in the room among the premises: Although Kryptic indeed played in Redwings hands with his army composition for a long time and was arguably too slow to adapt, this does not account for the fact that ze Wings was playing with one hand tied behind his back voluntarily by forgoing any tech. While that confounded Kryptic in the early game and had him tie up manpower/upkeep in Paks and other, by definition, pointless units, it virtually crippled Redwings from the midgame onwards and nearly cost him the game. A single Jackson, heck, any one piece of armour would have won him the contest at the 30 minute mark by the simple virtue of containing/punishing any and all of Kryptics unsupported armour pushes.
In conclusion: Ceteris paribus (meaning here, without player skill coming into the equation) this game if anything allows merely one conclusion, and that is that the greater relative strength and attritional efficiency of US inf viz German inf certainly makes Redwings particular approach feasible.
The best potential counter it appears to me would have been a double sniper build to manpower trap Redwings...which is of course lame, but hey, c'est la guerre. Or something.

Back to work.

I will watch this.RedxWings Team Kreygasm