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Thread: US BARS25 Aug 2018, 20:24 PM It's that it sounds like "Rifles" are rifleman, that's why it's confusing. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy25 Aug 2018, 19:20 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 18:24 PMKatitof There used to be universal formula for starting MP, which was 500mp minus starter unit cost, however with time both axis armies and brits got an extra. Ost got extra, because reasons. OKW got extra because they were not able to instantly build volks due to initial 320mp spio cost. And UKF I believe always had extra to build 2nd squad from get go, they got it at least as long as I can remember. Nope. That was without the engineer taken into account. It was close to 500 but reduced before WFA. OH: because basically USF was released and it was roflstomping them 1v1 (also because several other reasons), they had several changes applied. MG42 T0, Pio buffs and an extra mp. OKW: had 240mp, but they received a SwS which you could push with (not counting the crush era) and other nasty things like Kubeljesus. Volks were 235. During the rework, OKW was play tested i think with 240mp and 250mp Volks and later on they gave them 340mp to start with. UKF: got extra because 1v1 they were bad and they had poor early game presence. 290>340 In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy25 Aug 2018, 18:03 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 17:37 PMShadowLinkX37 So with the difference of about 20 manpower on the sturm starter, and say 80 MP for the SwS.... nope i give up. No clue what the plan is. You reduce how fast you can field 4 Volks/Kubel straight away. So while you have an edge at the first engagement with SP + Volk/Kubel against any other faction (because UKF strenght isn't the early or anything atm) the follow up 3rd unit is slightly delayed. This comes from the perspective that before you didn't had to pay for the 100mp SwS so after rework, you were given an extra +100mp to start with. BUT NOBODY builds it prior to fielding any type of unit, which leads to a better field presence on the the first minutes of the game. If for some miracle reason, tomorrow UKF IS + Bren/MG becomes too strong and manage to cap aggressively, you could do the same with the extra mp they received. If Penals are "too oppressive" just increase build time. The only issue i could see later on, are "free" USF squads which is a different can of worms. On both ways, for people who don't actually want them as a forced unit and the "shock" value at that point of getting a Thompson/Bar model. This makes playing with any kind of call in infantry to be in a an awkward position as you end with too many infantry units. Offtopic: possibilities i could see testing are. -Reducing mp teching cost but forcing you to build the LT/Cpt/Major afterwards (danger of rushing vehicles). -Letting you "recoup" units out of the field for a certain mp value with either LT/Cpt. -Unlocking either LT/Cpt/Major tech doesn't make the unit arrive immediately. You still have to build it (free on the first one), if you want to. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: US BARS25 Aug 2018, 17:04 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 15:44 PMZombiFrancis I think at most, BARs could stand a reduction in far range accuracy of about 10-15%. Maybe. But veterancy is where rifles with BARs are powerful, not necessarily with BARs independently. None of the veterancy in CoH2 has ever been well balanced, or designed for that matter. My opinion from like 2 years ago, same principle. You could put more emphasis on reducing the long range DPS on some of the AR to differentiate them from LMGs. At first this should apply to BAR. Once some QoL changes are done to OKW, squad formation and unit call in, i could see the same treatment apply to IR STG and maybe FG42. Reduce DPS from range 25-35 from (6.03/5.17/4.37) to something around (5/4/3) Gren + LMG42 at (25-35): 17.99/17.03/15.98 Rifle + 2xBar at (25-35): 19.08/16.25/13.75 New Rifle 2xBar at (25-35): 17.02/13.91/11.01 If LMGs are limited to 1 from rack pick, i wouldn't mind BAR + 1919 as this requires teching and shouldn't be as effective with the new weapon profile (you are mixing a weapon which is better at close range and on the move vs something which needs to be static and at range). Obviously numbers might be off. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: US BARS25 Aug 2018, 16:56 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 04:14 AMJae For Jett Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 12:48 PMShadowLinkX37 There's also cooldown (and burst for other type of weapons) into the mix. But Rifles have a weapon closer to a carbine rather than a bolt action damage profile, still you are losing 45% of DPS (thx Cruzzi, you can check it by double clicking an infantry squad to show moving dps). But he already said that you should chase with Garands but then you said not so with "Rifles" so... STG Volks i'll bet you should chase cause i think the STG overcomes the Kar98. The only time you would think of not chasing is if you want to capture a point or stay in cover. Unless you are an IS or you have a weapon which can't fire on the move, you are generally better chasing as you can land more shots, avoid LoS blockers and stay in optimal range DPS. Note: you don't chase if the squad is coming towards you. Only after they leave your position you start chasing and you might as well stop when nearing your max range. Honestly, for an "optimal" decision, you would had to run a test on which you see how many more shots a bolt action unit chasing would be able to land and at what distance they are doing so. For ex: say 2 conscripts squad start shooting at 0 range. Then one stay still (A) and the other starts to chase (B). -Say A only is able to shoot 1 once more at 20 range and B manage to shoot twice at 15/30. Theorical DPS says A is able to do more dmg on avg. -Same scenario but B fires 3 shots at 11/22/33. B does more dmb. -Same as first scenario, but B stops to fire it's last volley at range 35. B does more dmg. There's also the fact that you could "high roll RNG" while chasing squads. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy25 Aug 2018, 15:46 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 12:53 PMAlphrum If u wna nerf OKW starting MP, then u better buff the starting fuel cuz im sure they start with the least. Because they don't require any min 0 tech investment at all. Fuelwise, all factions are where they need to be. Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 12:57 PMShadowLinkX37 The volks starter was suggested by someone else but is far more likely to occur than a kubel starter. Which would make it the suitable assumption if they were looking to change it. So what you're suggesting is to nerf SPs to around other engineer levels, putting the excess manpower into the 1st SwS (or all?) to compensate and then nerfing stats accordingly? I mean sure but OKW would then struggle for those first 5 minutes since their manpower is essentially taken away till tech, and the only thing keeping OKW afloat as a faction in 1v1 currently is their early game pressure coupled with light vehicles. Their support teams are too mediocre and lategame armor lacks AI heavily. But yes this could potentially fix things for the OKW opener, given they were given a very sizeable lategame buff. Otherwise the faction would just get rolled at all points of the game. How come someone be so dense XD OKW still starts with a SP. Not a Kubel, not a Volks. SP scaling can be changed but that's not the issue here. If you remove 40-60mp early on (you would net equal tech cost after 2 trucks and been ahead on the 3rd) you'll be losing what, 10s/15s top of delayed production ? The first SP should be as important as the MG42 is for OH. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy25 Aug 2018, 04:28 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Aug 2018, 03:48 AMShadowLinkX37 I'd say it matters although probably not enough to actually stop a change if it was wanted. Say OKW starts with volks, and ignoring issues against other factions with that, you're now required to purchase the sturmpioneer. Which means that its vet comes later, which makes that excess manpower that you're required to sink for into combat stats on an engineer is essentially going to more of a waste because SPs will be outclassed that much sooner. Other engineers can either get a flamer, which allows for faster vet accumulation and damage output even against upgraded squads, but they're also cheaper and require less popcap. Essentially, you don't have to sink the resources for other factions engineers if you don't want too, but for OKW it comes with that build cost which may or may not be used. There are workarounds for this like changing the SPs vet a bit, or the unit even moreso. I'm not sure why you keep talking about replacing SP with Volks when i never mention it. Which to my surprise, you keep ignoring my point over the last 2 messages. OKW was given an extra 100mp when they had their rework and they had to pay for their trucks. Performance and cost of SP were slightly buffed across different patches and currently, i don't see the faction having struggle with cheese strats (as most of them had been patched out). If the changelog is correct this is the opening for all factions: SU: CE + 350mp OH: Pio + 420mp (+60 in order to help basically against USF) USF: RET + 400mp OKW: SP + 340mp (+100 after rework to account for SwS) UKF: IS + 340mp (+50 after release cause they suck hard on 1v1) In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy24 Aug 2018, 22:33 PM Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2018, 15:35 PMShadowLinkX37 While these may be "buffs", the only ones you ever notice is the reinforce time. It's rare to build a 2nd sturmpioneer unless its a heavy urban map, or you've lost yours. Vet 4 and 5 combat bonuses received nerfs and those are hardly obtainable anyways. Pop reduction is nice but when literally every other unit in the arsenal received a popcap increase it didn't matter. OKW now suffers heavily from its popcap lategame. The panzerschreck is just awful anyways. Paying 70 munis for potentially a 120 damage source and hampers the units AI which gets outmatched by midgame anyways unless you hit vet 2, which you then get about 2-5 extra minutes of effectivness until weapon upgrades put the unit on the sidelines completely. Not to mention lack of sweepers. The unit simply is asked to do too much. As said previously you'd need to rework the faction or the unit entirely because if you start with a volks OKW would get destroyed by UKF. That matchup currently can go either way, but it would swing to UKF entirely from a volks starter. Not to mention you'd then later have to build the SP which would make their vet even more unobtainable. Is it any different from any other engineer unit? I don't mind any other type of buffs/changes which make 2x Sturm more desirable or better through the mid to late game as it remains a 300mp unit. This is why i said that if the first 3-5 mins are a bit problematic, why not shift that power around. Instead of starting with a 340mp and a 300mp unit, reduce that to 280/300 and make SwS mp cost go from 100 to 80-70 In: COH2 Balance
Thread: US BARS24 Aug 2018, 13:11 PM In an ideal world, you would nerf assault Rifles and Carbines which perform too well at long range and the difference between both could be how well they snipe individual model vs spreading damage across the squad through the focus fire mechanic. But this train has long depart from station some years ago. Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2018, 11:05 AMVipper That is one of the problems with V.G. STG and Penal SVT. They weapon's curve are almost linear (they are simply to effective at all ranges) allowing these units to perform adequately at all ranges. Grens G43, Falls FGs, Obers IR STG & PF G43. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Storm pioneers are too cheap and too fast to deploy24 Aug 2018, 02:54 AM Jump back to quoted post24 Aug 2018, 00:45 AMShadowLinkX37 More importantly though, how could you fix this without completely overhauling the SP unit, the OKW faction, or talking about their lack of AI power lategame? Remove/reduce/pass around the extra 100mp they start with. The SwS is a good unit/tech requirement you could reduce mp wise so you would effectively keep the same overall teching cost. About the SP as a unit, they had been hugely buff in the latest patches but outside of them getting a 5th man or weapon upgrade, they are not gonna be an infantry unit which can compete with main line upgraded infantry. On top of having plenty of roles. I mean, this were the last year December changes: Build time from 40 to 28 Reinforce time from 10 to 7 Population from 9 to 8 Repair speed from 3 to 2 Minesweeper upgrade bonus to repair rate from +1 to +25% repair rate Panzerschreck cost from 90 to 70 Panzerschreck upgrade no longer requires trucks to be setup Veterancy requirements reduced to 580/1160/2320/2900/3770 Veterancy 4 15% weapon accuracy and -23% received accuracy removed. Veternacy 5 40% accuracy modifier moved to veterancy 4 In: COH2 Balance