This Ziss is already incredibly inferior to the Pak. It makes no sense for it to have an awful vet1 ability. But I'm sure the reason they nerfed Tracking into the ground was because otherwise a self spotting AT gun would be incredibly powerful against OKW Base Trucks. You can attack ground, but you end up missing most of the time.
Today we've got another great Company of Heroes 2 game. This time it's between Moaning Minnie as the Wehrmacht against Emperor Tomato Ketchup as the US Forces.
the thing is that you complain about one side while ignoring the other. while a tiger makes a non-doctrinal tank useless (your opinnion, like i said before i think SOV and US TD take on them pretty good)you think is2 is fine as it is. why should allies be able to counter a doctrinal unit easily while germans aren't??
I never said IS-2 was fine, in-fact I said the opposite. What I'm asking for is to make dedicated finesse and delicate Tank destroyers actually viable instead of spending every single game over and over again relying on anti everything call-ins that are capable of dealing with heavy tanks as well as Shrek blobs and Paks. (IS-2's/ISU's/T-34'85s/Easy 8's.)
The strength of those call-ins is a different issue for a different thread.
@Cannonade, you clearly haven't been reading half of my posts.
But I did suggest giving Tigers the MG gunner at Vet1 instead as a replacement for Blitzkrieg. Actually preventing the IS-2/ISU from being able to build an MG gunner from the get go would definitely be a nerf, I have no idea how you can't disagree with that. Lowering it's anti infantry damage until it hits Vet 1 is absolutely a nerf, and munitions in the late game are worthless for Soviets on a Doctrine that doesn't get Guards or Mark Target, there's just nothing to spend it on except Incendiaries Arty strikes with the IS-2 doctrine.
Yes the IS-2 is overpowered and needs a nerf too. That's not at all the point, but are we happy? Can we stop derailing the thread and move on?
Why does everyone feel the need to compare the Tiger to the IS-2 so directly? There's so many other influences in the overall matchups. Blitzkrieg doesn't even really effect Tigers vs IS-2's much, but it what does do, is completely break SU-85/Jacksons and AT guns against Tigers.
The strength or overpoweredness of the IS-2 does not translate into a justification for giving Tigers a broken ability that at a conceptual design level breaks the meta and matchups by preventing anything other than a few specific call in units viable. It's starting to sound like a lot of the people actually enjoy the stale meta consisting of nothing but the same 5 calls in over and over again every game instead of a proper functioning counter system and dynamic.
Eh, speed is not the only thing SU 85 and Jackson have over "regular" German tanks. The SU isnt faster ie. as the PIV AFAIK. They both outrange them tho and SU has more vision. Even a single Su 85 can push a Tiger around pretty much at will, or at least consign it to a purely defensive role unless the German player really wants to commit. One might also reply that the only reliable way to kill Soviet heavies and Allied advanced mediums is with German heavies/ JT/ Elefant...
The other problem that makes SU-85's and Jacksons unviable is the potency of German Infantry based AT and Paks/Rakatenwerfers, able to zone away SU-85's and Jacksons, if not killing Jacksons in 3 shots. P4's and Panthers however can just drive up Ziss and M1's head on and decrew them.
This is another huge reason why Coh2 is all about the late game armour call ins, because of how Shreks/Paks make Jacksons/SU-85's worthless so instead Allied rely on IS-2's/ISU's/T-34 85's and Easy 8's is because not only are they the only tanks capable of dealing with heavy axis armour, but are also capable of dealing with Shrek blobs and paks. You would think that the Dedicated AT armour that is incapable of dealing with Shrek Blobs and Paks/Raketens would be decent against Heavy German tanks as a result, but that is not at all the case. And Blitzkrieg is a huge fixable influence preventing that.
Tigers would be completly fine without Blitzkreig. Super heavy anti everything tanks with lots of health and armour are allowed to not be super fast. The IS-2 is also a super heavy anti every tank with lots of health and armour, it does fine without being super fast.
But I did suggest giving Tigers the MG gunner at Vet1 instead as a replacement for Blitzkrieg. Actually preventing the IS-2/ISU from being able to build an MG gunner from the get go would definitely be a nerf, I have no idea how you can't disagree with that. Lowering it's anti infantry damage until it hits Vet 1 is absolutely a nerf, and munitions in the late game are worthless for Soviets on a Doctrine that doesn't get Guards or Mark Target, there's just nothing to spend it on except Incendiaries Arty strikes with the IS-2 doctrine.
Blitzrieg is a huge contributer to the stale broken meta where the whole game just ends up being a doctrinal call-in battle, because allied non doctrinal tanks are really crappy against heavy tanks and Allied lack any decent infantry based AT.
Yes balance isn't perfect for Soviets or Americans either, but if people keep fighting fire with fire "You can't nerf the OP german things until you nerf the OP Allied things" Then you're never going to have a balanced game. You need to look at the design and conceptual level of things instead of just fanboying over which faction has the most OP things. Is a vet1 ability that gives the strongest tanks in the game an ability to negate all non-doctrinal AT weaponry in the game by making a slow heavy tank out speed light mobile dedicated AT units a good idea and good for the overall flow of the game? No, of course not. As I said Speed and ra nge is the only thing SU-85's and Jacksons have going for them over German tanks, and Tigers can just Blitzkrieg in to chase down and kill SU-85's and Jacksons with ease, ignoring AT grenades that don't penetrate and ignoring button because of Smoke. Also Blitzkrieging head on past several AT guns and they'll only fire one shot before the tiger has driven past them and no longer in the firing arc, and there's no guarantee the first shot will penetrate.
Ever noticed the only way to kill Tigers and heavy German armour is with IS-2's, ISU's, T-34/85's and easy 8's? This is a big problem overall and Blitzkrieg is one of the problems in fixing that. Yes IS-2's and ISU's are over performing at the moment, doesn't mean we can't be constructive with other huge balance and design problems in the game.
I don't see why the notion of Tigers not having a vet 1 ability is such a shock, Soviet Heavy Tanks essentially don't have any vet abilities, they have capture point which is absolutely pathetic on an IS-2 or KV-1.
A possible solution would be to remove the Top MG Gunner as a munitions upgrade, but instead put it on for free upon reaching Vet1. In fact, that's probably a good idea for the IS-2 as well, capture point is deadful and not needed but losing the abiltiy to build the MG gunner would be a small nerf to it.