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Thread: vs sniper as USF9 Jun 2017, 10:14 AM Example replay for thread In: Replays
Thread: Playing as USF is unfun anymore9 Jun 2017, 10:13 AM Jump back to quoted post8 Jun 2017, 14:29 PMAugust1996 Against Wehr, once you meet better players sniper plays will be a lot more prominent and USF is helpless against well-microed sniper without diving with an M20. With UKF/Sov you can counter snipe reliably and the sniper is less effective against Sov's 6 man squads. Gooooooodd fucking luck flanking the sniper in time to kill it and if you fail you throw even more MP into the dustbin. Snipers will ravage you senseless all game. Snipers eventually become a very significant problem for USF lategame but early on there are a lot of ways to play around and minimise the effect of the sniper. A lot of players i've faced treat an enemy sniper as just another regular unit to fight, but I find that the entire dynamic of the early game changes when one side has a sniper. Cover play no longer works; juking with shotblockers, sightblockers, and garrison play take precedence. The goal is to minimise the profile of an engagement such that combat takes place entirely within a short few seconds, in a relatively small area, where your squads force his squads and his sniper to retreat. Ideally the sniper will have time only to take one or two shots in the entire engagement. Place your squads behind hedges and jump behind houses until the point where all your squads are ready to go, at which point overwhelm him since he's expended more manpower in the sniper and has less squads that you. Protracted, distributed fighting in green cover is exactly what the sniper counters and gives him the power to push out onto the map as you retreat your squads one by one, in turn letting him set up in cover positions and making it very hard for you to push out. Here's a game vs ostheer on a favourable sniper map, Langres. I lose my M20 with minimal impact but his sniper had very little field time and presence, having to constantly retreat. https://www.coh2.org/replay/61777/vs-sniper-as-usf In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 1 Jun 2017, 09:34 AM Jump back to quoted post31 May 2017, 09:33 AMMr.Smith Bottomline; if 25% penalty is too big, we could consider slightly smaller penalties. As the strength of call-ins and their place in the meta varies considerably and applying a blanket nerf would be undeserved, I've gone through all (that I can recall) below. From ingame experience / watching games, I'm fairly sure the majority of call-in units do not need any penalty whatsoever. The majority of call-in related balance issues have stemmed from singular abilities across a variety of the game's lifespan (currently it's M10, Command Panther and M4C). Adding further penalties to all would be to the detriment of game variety. No penalty Stug E - Not a problem unit in itself, and the Stug E - Tiger no tech strat is both unique and has not been problematic since the Stug E stopped being capable of countering light vehicles. Command P4 - Not a problem unit. Unlocking it from tech would perhaps allow for interesting multiple light vehicle + command P4 strats, or Pak43 based builds since it has fuel cost now. Elsewhere, you had better teched up to T3 (or T4) or be dead, because the CP's come too late to have a panic-P4 anyway. SiphonX already answered this- no reason to further cripple a weak strategy if it's already so ineffective. Puma - as SiphonX already said- not a problem unit. Players figured out how to counter Puma spamming with command P4 even before light vehicles in general were nerfed. It would be refreshing to see this strat again. Mortar Halftrack - self explanatory- low impact support unit. I think this unit could use a price drop to 30F and CP drop (maybe even to 0CP) just to diversify openings, as it arrives too late to skip over the regular mortar and costs a not insignificant amount for a unit of the type. Tiger - T2 to Tiger strats are not only completely inefficient outside of mech assault (you would certainly have enough fuel for one T3 unit by 13CP unless the game was already lost), but is also straight forward to counter. There's no need to make this playstyle even worse than it is. T3 to Tiger strats, as mentioned in a previous post, are quite balanced as they are. Executing this with Lightning War is the strongest due to G43s, the osttruppen button and SCAS. With SCAS and osttruppen button being deservedly nerfed and T3 being rebalanced (stug nerf / P4 buff) there's no reason to further weaken this. I'm sure that if you went T3 you can also afford 60MP/10FU. So if it makes no difference to T3-Tiger play and cripples Stug E- Tiger play, might as well leave it out entirely. Ace - How this unit fits into the wehr roster I'm not sure, after the change to full fuel and MP price. Holding out for the Ace without any tech has always been inefficient, so having the 25% penalty now seems completely unwarranted- a similar situation, in other words, to the regular Tiger. I'm not sure why it needs the not insignificant penalty now (total cost tops off at 1000+MP, 400+F at half map control / full popcap). Elefant - Improvements to utility and drop in cost might make this unit an occasional sight in 1v1. Fortified Armor with no tech might even be possible in troll games (command P4 to Elefant). Penalizing this unit for call-in without tech is unnecessary (it isn't a balance problem in 1v1) and would eliminate what might be an interesting option. --- M5 - Again, low-impact unit that's not actually seen in 1v1 play. With the changes to assault guards perhaps it'll be more viable, but that remains to be seen. KV8 (current iteration) - I used this unit as an example in the original post- T3 + KV8 strats have been offmeta and easy to counter for ages. Removing the penalty would also allow for interesting build orders with Terror (T3-KV8-Howitzer). I agree that should the unit itself be further buffed then perhaps this could be re-examined. IS2 - What SiphonX said- IS2 play is painfully rare, and nerfs to T3 will make stalling for this unit even harder. No reason to completely nullify T3 - IS2 play with the penalties. I'm not convinced that a no-tech IS-2 can be countered at all with Stug nerfs. This is especially after the bruising you will get from SU-76 if you over-rely on T3 tanks. If you lose the price penalty we (the playerbase) can test this change and let you know if it's too strong. Since you've improved the Panther for the express reason of allowing for heavy vehicle countering, I don't think this will be a problem. ISU - Hard to say how effective this unit will be since there have been significant changes to how it works. Going by the previous iteration of this unit, playing around and countering the ISU is not very difficult, and again, similar to the IS2, T3 has been nerfed making stalling out harder. The unit is barely seen in 1v1s, similarly to the ISU. KV2 - Doctrine basically requires T4 anyway for maximum efficiency. Should somebody want to attempt a KV8-KV2 centered strategy, I've no doubt that it would be both below the effectiveness of a normal tech-tier build based on the performance of the units, and very possible to counter. Requiring a tiers to remove the penalty would just hammer the nail in the coffin for this possible strategy. Penalize call-ins without tech/tier (or lock fully behind tech) Sherman M4C - This unit, together with the Command Panther and M10, is probably the reason for the vitriol centered around call-ins- as it actually lies in the centre of current meta balance problems. As it's most similar to the T3485 and Easy Eight, which themselves caused many balance issues back when they were call-ins, it's probably for the best to either lock this unit behind tier 4 (as with the other advanced medium tanks) or keep the penalty. KV1 (with revamp buffs) - Before revamp buffs I'd argue that stalling for KV1s made for a strat that offered counterplay and was not overly strong. With the received damage and vet change keeping it behind tier / with penalty is probably for the best. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 31 May 2017, 07:09 AM Jump back to quoted post31 May 2017, 06:38 AMEsxile Strategies revolving around call-in will always be unbalanced and make stock equivalence unused. Except that isn't the case- techless call-ins aren't inherently badly balanced, just some combination of price point and timing compared to standard units make them so. Like the example I gave- long T1 play and rushing out T3 units as wehrmacht is equally valid, if not stronger than, going T2, Stug Es, and Tiger. However, having the option to go for Stug Es and Tiger grants the game more strategic diversity i.e. i can choose to execute either in order to provoke a reaction or as a counterbuild against an opponent, or simply because I prefer the playstyle. Ofc there are badly implemented call-ins at the moment- medium tank call-ins have been problematic for much of the game and the M4C is no exception. Perhaps that unit can be tied to T4, much like the T3485 has been and the Easy 8 on the USF side. But that doesn't mean all call-ins as a concept are the root of all evil, which would be a knee jerk reaction and uncalled for. I'd like to see the game both be more balanced, yet retain unique character both for individual units and different tech/call-in oriented playstyles. Universally eliminating the effectiveness of techless call-ins as a rule rather than to accommodate balance in a case-by-case basis would not serve the game well. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 31 May 2017, 05:14 AM Jump back to quoted post23 May 2017, 08:14 AMMr.Smith Technically, DP guards have button which you can use in conjunction with a snare (e.g., satchel). Would giving PTRS access to a similar utility help make the unit less bland, in your opinion? Also, did you find a use for the Hit the dirt ability? I think their previous iteration as a multirole squad was very unique (in fact, completely unique in the COH2 setting beyond single shreck storms. BAR + zook rifles don't count.) and I think you lose more by eliminating this. I didn't have the opportunity to use HtD due game circumstance. Jump back to quoted post23 May 2017, 08:14 AMMr.Smith If 2 G43's are too shitty and 4 G43's are too strong, would 3 G43's be the sweet spot? Perhaps. It's just fine tuning after all. Jump back to quoted post23 May 2017, 08:14 AMMr.Smith I wouldn't really unlatch KV8/KV1 from T4, as they are really strong now in 1v1 (where call-ins are a headache). Elefant, we kinda could change, I guess, depending on where the barrage ends up KV8 strats are definitely not in vogue as the unit itself isn't too strong (low armor, hp, flamer doesn't have the incredible range nor damage of the croc). I don't think having it as a niche comeback unit or part of a T3 based comp would be imbalanced- if anything, I think KV8 centered strats could be strengthened. KV1 is a lot stronger- in live, I think KV1 spam strats are roughly on par, if not slightly inferior to regular soviet teching (see barton's build for the most efficient incorporation of the unit). Given that you've buffed this unit in the revamp perhaps it can be left attached to tech (though, I would prefer to see it weaker and unlatched from tech precisely so more creative builds which don't incorporate tech are competitive.) Jump back to quoted post23 May 2017, 08:14 AMMr.Smith Prop arty? Propaganda leaflets. On second thoughts, though, they aren't in any problem doctrines nor do they seem to cause any knockon effects so forget I mentioned them in the first place I think that while a lot of the changes are very admirable and successfully balance the game, they cut down on strategic diversity- something which COH2 already has precious little of. If T3 + Tiger strategies are too effective compared to T4, then should the price point of T4 or effectiveness of units within T4 not be buffed such that it becomes competitive, rather than gutting T3 + Tiger? What goes on here is that techless strategies in the mod are disincentivized so heavily as to be the equivalent of teching strategies that currently exist in live. The 25% cost increase when it comes to heavy vehicles becomes so large that teching becomes de facto- there's no decision making at all, just as it is now where techless call ins are equally no-brainer choices! This, all in all, results in blandness not in terms of unit to unit, but in terms of what tech you see every game. Elimination of viability of call-in units, which aid these interesting tech skip builds builds (stuge, puma) or create strategies revolving around them (T3 units + Tiger or Ace, KV1, stuge-tiger), unfortunately make the game less interesting. Just my two cents. I really hope my conclusions above from what i've observed ingame while playing the mod and from my understanding of your design goals don't end up coming true. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 23 May 2017, 07:11 AM Observations from 1v1 matchups (against Kpen, Miragefla) -New iteration of guards are much more bland than they were previously and overlap heavily with penals, lacking a proper niche of their own. PTRS option is straight up fully inferior to the penal version, with poorer rifles and no snare ensuring they can be bullied by their intended targets up close. With DPs they are, again, very similar to penals as heavy long-range anti-infantry, and again lacking a soft counter to vehicles means they can't harrass nor counterharrass. Pgrens, obers, jaegers, stormtroopers don't have snares either They don't directly compete against penals, fulfilling the same function, approximate strength, and cost. -Pgren G43s are very strong. Can't say if this is abusable. Cheap, very good accuracy on the move and better ranged profile than STGs means they wipe the floor with almost all soviet infantry, and pick off retreating units with ease. -Universal change to tierless call-in cost limits game variety. For the sake of some diversity, certain call-ins could be exempt from the 25% cost increase- if only to give the option of some specific compositions. For example, KV8 + T3, KV1 + T3, Elefant + T3. -Changes tested that seem great: Howitzer fuel cost, 0CP arty officer, conscript molotov throw speed, demo charges, shock troop reinforcement, M5 cost reduction, bundle nade nerf, JU87 loiter nerf -Others: Prop arty seems very effective. Might warrant look at cost. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: DSHKA + Penals23 May 2017, 03:40 AM Jump back to quoted post23 May 2017, 01:53 AMLoopDloop Sniper + ostruppen might work. This is 100% theoretical but I bet you could totally outflank the dshka from like 4 directions with ostruppen while the sniper picks off penals or crewmen one by one. The dshka will probably spend more time refacing than shooting at ostruppen so you should be able to overrun it, even if it's supported by penals. You should also either have a shit ton of ostruppen or a lot of manpower float, so you can either base lock him or spam caches and rush an ostwind or p4. Just FYI this doesn't work- osttruppen aren't significantly cheaper than grens such that you have any greater flanking power. Combined with zero moving dps and lack of grenades to punish constant refacing in combat osttruppen have always been pretty hard countered by HMG spam. G43 grens with stun nades or backed by reserve army ability would work much better. In: Strategy Desk
Thread: Eastern Front Armies Revamp 21 May 2017, 09:53 AM I've played a couple games, will make observations on those when i'm confident in my impressions. Some things I've observed outside actual gameplay (i.e. using cheatcommands) Elefant HE barrage is extremely strong. I'd say even with the direct damage nerf to the gun this constitutes a buff to the unit. Long aim time, but full 70 range, no vet requirement, and low cost- tested it and it wiped a zis and destroyed the gun, in one barrage, at max range. I like the direction behind this change - makes less a zero or hero unit now it has a lot of utility. Cannot attest to actual balance. ISU deflection is bugged - on deflection off target that it should kill, it reduces HP to zero instead. The next shot, ofc, kills the target. I think this is similar to a bug with handheld AT weapons that emerged a little while ago. Regardless, the effect of this change together with the arcing shells (a major nerf considering the wipe potential of the unit before) has probably realigned it as more anti-tank / anti-team weapon than anti-inf (this is not necessarily a bad thing imo). In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Contest: New Maxim vet1 ability2 Apr 2017, 01:09 AM Order 227 NKVD gunners gently encourage movement of their comrades towards the enemy with a hail of bullets Maxim can now target friendly infantry squads and apply negative suppression. May or may not cause damage or death to targeted comrade. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Halbe - 1v1 map23 Dec 2016, 06:54 AM The map basically consists of a giant open red cover road that bisects it left-to-right and covers all the combat area in the centre. Tiny morsels of green cover are strung about outside of bullet range to ensure that combat basically becomes a stalemate of who wants to leave their cover and die first. This translates to snipers being absolutely impossible to counter because, again, the map is a giant open road with no sight nor shot-blockers. A-move down the centre and you're set. The huge swathes of red cover also ensure that light vehicles do murderous damage and make retreating almost pointless. Elevation also screws with arcing weapons, causing lobbed shots to fly straight at their target and do tons of AOE damage. In: COH2 Gameplay