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This might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the AVRE is in a decent spot right now. It can't really kill tanks because it takes 40 seconds to reload, which is ample time to retreat and repair a vehicle. Granted, it stuns the crew and will do decent damage, but you have to hit such a vehicle dead center, and the AVRE isn't exactly subtle, long ranged or quick to fire, making it easily dodgeable.
As for making it only effective against infantry or tanks, I'd say it's already effective against infantry (moreso if by some miracle it gets to Vet 3) and isn't much better than tulip rockets against vehicles. While it does do insane burst damage, it's supposed to work by wiping through attrition, and it has to be supported to fully take down tanks.
And it does already have the glaring weakness of not doing sustained damage like other call-ins of its cost. Making it another brummbar is honestly doing the difference in calibres a strange disservice.
I'd say if there's to be any change, it should be to make the AVRE do way more damage to buildings, as well as make it more consistent when firing up elevation. At 12 CP it does come in at a time where lethality reaches its highest point, and while I get that it does a lot in a short amount of time, it also in the long run still does about the same amount of impact as a regular Churchill. |
The way actual US tank destroyer units were supposed to act was as a counter attack unit sent to engage enemy tanks that had made a breakthrough by moving quickly from a rear area to intercept the break through unit and ambush it and/or counter assault into it. So M1 ATGs and the Riflemen field defenses represent the first part while M10s and M8s are the second part. I’d prefer the M10 to be a call in, but currently the game uses it as a buildable Major tier unit, so I put it in as that. A tank detection ability to replace the air recon would be fine though, but I think air recon is more USF style. A mark target ability similar to Soviets is a neat idea, but change it so the P-47s strafe the tank repeatedly with MGs causing some damage to light vehicles but stunning tanks while giving sight to ground forces but no extra penetration or bonus damage like the Soviet version. This strafe would not target infantry, but would damage and suppress infantry if they were too close to the tank being attacked.
Either sounds good. If there was a way to combine a strafing run that tags tanks, that'd be pretty cool.
yea and who uses an m10 over a fucking jackson? like i don't see the logic of getting the major and then making an m10 when there's a jackson i can get. this is where it all goes wrang. i'm saying i want the LT and CPT teched or atleast one of them before the m10 comes on, and make the cp's higher so it obviously wont come in the first min... you can counter tanks like luchs in other ways even by using the AAHT, an ATGUN isn't even the most effective way cause luchs and such are to mobile while the ATGUN isn't... ofcourse i like the idea, but i'd put the 'special' ATGUN in some other commander where it has a bigger use. for instance some commander where the LT will be chosen above CPT for some reason, and then give that commander the ATGUN cause it will be usefull.
The problem is that the M10 has a use, but it's tied behind Armor Company, which has several deadweight abilities. And yeah, I greatly preferred it when the M10 was a call-in, mostly because it was a viable stop gap between Captain and Major. Now it's basically a turreted Stug.
As for using it over a Jackson, it's about two thirds the cost and just as effective against medium tanks. I'm also totally behind the idea of letting it be built if you have the Lieutenant + Captain teched (i.e. two USF base buildings).
I've tried using the AAHT against the luch, but its a stalemate at best. The Luch has light tank armor and a Stuart or 57mm is really needed to reliably counter them.
As for a special AT gun, you could honestly reuse the Recon Company airdropped AT gun group for the special zooks as well. Comes out at 4CP as well. |
i think you should put something else instead of the anti tank gun cause with the m10 you don't have to tech major and with atgun you don't have to tech captain + they're both anti tank. i would like to see m10 to be used more but i'd like to see it come thogeter with a tech of the LT AND CPT.
Not really. The M10, given that it arrives at 0CPs, is the version that's buildable at the Battalion building which requires Major. And the overlapping AT is still necessary, since the the mid-game gap where light vehicles reign supreme still requires the AT gun. |
USF Tank Destroyer Company
0 Cp: Riflemen field defenses. Mine laying works with the tank destroyer theme.
4 Cp: P-47 recon flight. Spotting for advancing enemy armour is a key aspect of tank destroyer doctrine and it’s a good utility ability that isn’t over powered.
4 Cp: M1 57mm Anti Tank Gun off map call in. *Elite* AT gun team is crewed by Assault engineers or Rangers making it more durable to infantry attacks with the better received accuracy but costs more to reinforce. Sort of a trade off for not having to tech Captain. Works with the theme.
5 Cp: M8 armored car call in. The M8 was originally evaluated as a tank destroyer early in the war before they decided to only evaluate potential new TDs that had at least a 57mm, then 3 inch and finally the 76mm gun. Examples being the M1 Anti Tank Gun, M10 GMC and the M18 Hellcat (I’d love to see it but that’s a no go due to needing a new model.)
0 Cp: M10 tank destroyer. Obvious choice for the theme as they were the primary Gun Motor Carrage used by the tank destroyer branch during WWII.
This commander is themed off of the real US tank destroyer branch that fought very successfully in WWII. If you are interested in it please look up The Chieftan on YouTube. He is a veteran tank commander who does several excellent talks on the tank destroyer branch, the development of the Sherman tank and the general myths of US tanks in WWII. It’s very interesting for anyone that is a CoH fan or a historian in general.
Damn, wish I thought of tank destroyer company.
Anyhow, I feel like - while the current line-up is good - you could probably add in some kind of tank detection for riflemen and tanks (tank hunters), a passive that makes hit tanks show up on the map for slightly longer (hammer tactics), and maybe a USF version of Target Vehicle Mark (soviets). |
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Had a while to think about it, and here are my ideas for New Commander concepts;
Soviets: Urban Assault Tactics
Take, dispute and hold key buildings. Shock Troopers provide close quarter clearing options for confined options, while partisan irregulars provide impromptu anti-tank support. Soldify or buildings with Guards Rifles or Forwards Headquarters, or deny them with Incendiary Artillery Barrages.
0: Forward HQ
2: Shock Troops
2: Guards Rifles
2: Partisan Tank Hunters
6: Incendiary Artillery
(Basically designed to give a flexible field presence and a highly adaptable early game.)
Ostheer: Assault Pioneer Doctrine
Gradually requisition specialized pioneer equipment to support construction, repair and assault operations, as well as Panzer IV tanks to support assaults.
0: Assault Pioneers; Escalate to Battle Phase 1 unlocks enhanced metalworking tools, increasing construction and repair by 25% for 20 munitions (ala British Heavy Engineers, not mutually exclusive with flamethrower or hazard upgrades). Escalate to Battle Phase 2 unlocks maximum pioneer squad size of 5. Escalate to Battle Phase 3 allows Pioneers to repair vehicle criticals (ala USF Vehicle Crews)
3: Repair Station; (Identical to the Soviet Industry one, but with pioneers instead. Gets an additional man at Escalate Battle Phase 2)
4: Smoke Bombs (airdrop)
9: Panzer IV Short Barrel: Off-map call in, 300 Manpower and 100 Fuel.
9: Panzer IV Command Tank
(Basically to give OST some scaling repair support, as well a bit of tank diversity.)
USF: Supply Line Company
Roll out and supply an American advance. Repurposed WC51 Military trucks and M3 Half-tracks can secure territory, while emergency airdrops can be assigned to soldiers in the field. When ready, armor can be pulled from the convoy to assist.
0: WC51 Military Truck; While not upgraded with the 50cal HMG, it can be used to secure territory like Cargo trucks.
3: M3 Half Track; Also has the secure territory ability while not upgraded. Can still reinforce units while securing territory
4: Air Resupply Operation; Basically the British version, but drops the 50cal and 57mm AT gun as well as medical supplies. Cost reduced to 140 due tot he 57mm AT gun being slightly less valuable than the British 3 Pounder.
5: M8 Greyhound
10: Bulldozer Sherman
(Basically to reflect the Red Ball aspect of the USF, letting them play slightly like mechanized, while also getting support weapons if necessary. Greyhound and Bulldozer are vehicle flavor to support anti-infantry support, while the later is to clear paths for your 'supplies'.)
OKW: Kampfkraft Doctrine
Requisition additional support infantry for your forces, from the trustworthy Ostruppen, the infamous MG42, long range Pak40, and german sharpshooters. Once your composition is complete, solidify your old guard strategy with dug in trenches.
0: Trenches
0: Ostruppen
1: Obersoldaten Sharpshooter; Statwise, the Ostheer sniper, but with Obesoldaten model. Call in for 360 Manpower.
1: MG42 Call in; Call in an MG42 for 240 Manpower
2: Pak40 Call in; Call in a Pak 40 for 300 Manpower
(Lets you play Ostheer, but as the OKW. Most people have problems with the MG34 HMG, and the Raketenwerfer is pretty contentious. It's super manpower heavy though, but I guess that makes some sense given that OKW can't build caches. Oh, and if you're wondering why the support weapons are cheap, its because they're crewed by Ostruppen. You can trust them though. No really, you can.)
UKF: Command Structure Regiment
Command from the field. Horsea Glider provides infantry leadership, while the Valentine Tank and command vehicles provide superior coordination and awareness. Call in a few favors in the form of pertinent artillery, and vehicle crew repairs.
2: Designate Command Vehicle
3: Airlanding Officer, Horsea Glider
4: Concentrated Artillery Barrage
6: Vehicle Crew Repairs
8: Valentine Tank
(A pretty interesting combination. The composition is for all the leadership elements of the British in one doctrine, while creating a {perhaps too powerful} combination for the underused Designate Command Vehicle and Valentine Tank. Vehicle Crew Repairs lets you keep the Valentine alive, and Concentrated Artillery is sort of the Captain's 'Victor Target' back in CoH1, but as an off-map ability.) |
Lend lease Shermans to UKF. They used tons of American stuff, even more than the Soviets.
I think this, combined with Partisans, would be quite interesting. |
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As someone who regularly picks the AEC, I think they do come out way too soon, and the infantry heavy section of the game is a little too short.
Or at the very least, make light vehicle counters faster to access. I suppose much of it is doctrinal, but maybe something like putting Weapon Racks behind T2 and letting Volks take a Panzershrek might help. |
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A lot to cover, so just my two Austalian cents:
Airborne: You mention unreliable rocket strikes, and now I'm getting flash backs from the time I called one in, and instead of hitting a tank, it flattened the large building that my ally was occupying. Good times.
Rifle Company: Rifleman Field Defenses would really fit in. Makes me think it was supposed to be part of the Company a long time ago. I think removing the E8 will hurt the end-game though, even if their mid-game does improve vastly.
Armored Company: Raid and M-8 Greyhound are actually really nice additions, but I've always felt that the M-8 Greyhound comes out way too late to impact the mid-game before legit tanks reach the field.
Recon Support Company: It does feel like Airborne+ at times, though Raid does seem out of place, given the infantry options in the doctrine.
Mechanized Company: The point of raid is to relatively safely drive deep into enemy territory to go for a cut-off point or other high value resource point - places infantry can't typically reach safely or quickly. That said, Combined Arms would make equal - if not more - value here.
The 76 and Easy Eight are in a strange spot, yeah. I think when they tried to balance the price and timing of the 76 as a call-in for Soviets was one thing, but making it opportunity cost for the USF was a strange interaction effect.
I also don't remember much of the Ardennes Assault (bugs and all), so could I get a crash course on what Cavalry Riflemen are?
Tactical Support: Idk, I feel like this Company is in the best spot right now - long ranged combat. I'm totally for a Crocodile Sherman though, even if there's some overlap with the bulldozer sherman.
Heavy Cavalry Company: I think the Company is meant to defensively hold long enough for the Pershing, though that makes little sense since the Germans are typically far better in that regard. I think Rangers in the M3 Halftrack (if only for a Thompson gangster driveby) that can upgrade to double m1919s would be a good mobile defense option. I don't think Rangers are there to blob, but merely to be the top end close quarters unit to work in tandem with the jack of all trades Riflemen, not instead of them.
And yeah, having the Easy Eight in a company where the opportunity cost is for T4 + a tank, or for the only Heavy tank. Getting both seems like a pipe dream, for better or worse.
Royal Artillery: From what I've heard, Concentration Barrage is basically the main reason to take this, because it's relatively affordable as far as British Off-map artillery goes. I also feel like they should get Counter Battery, but that would conflict with this ability for the most part.
As for a 25 Pounder, idk. Most people are hesitant to build a Mortar emplacement, so a 25 Pounder anywhere on the map is redundant.
I also think they removed the Concentration Barrage going into fog of war specifically to prevent it from deleting OKW bases without line of site.
Breakthrough: Sturmtiger here makes a lot of sense actually.
Elite Armored: Jagdtiger here - or maybe even both here - could be interesting, but then again, would make this doctrine only for team games. I think the Command Panther in here alongside the Jadgtiger would be an interesting utilization of the HEAT shells.
OST and SOV thoughts are on the money for me.
Aight, cool. |
Id say having the valentine stats w/o map hacks would never get used. It could probably be stronger without being too OP as the valentine cant kill anything at all.
That's probably what will happen with players mostly because the Valentine's main gun does like 80 damage. Pricing puts it somewhere between an armored car and an Ostwind, but I suppose you're paying for the gun on those things.
I'd say something like STUG-E armoring with an Armored Car main gun would be better for the price, but then again I read the wikipedia entry saying the Valentine supercedes the Matilda and all.
Errr, balancing an entire new tank might be more trouble than its worth.
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Just a new member here, probably been lurking intermittently for a year and a half. Picked up the game a little over 2 years ago when it was on sale, and finally installed it when I got a DX11 graphics card. I played a fair bit of CoH1, so it was great to play the sequel.
As for what kind of player I am, I'm basically only a skirmish player. I dabbled in Stonewall in CoH1 (even writing a guide on it, of all things) and my playstyle basically revolves around efficient defences. Which... yeah, you probably guessed, makes me a Brit player, sometimes an OST and OKW player, and in a blue moon, a Soviet or USF player. |
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