That would be 2LM (considering pricing of both units) or Stuka (with lack of medics)
That's actually a good point. Although IIRC the lm costs a lot of manpower (like ~350), which you can't discount, especially with a faction like ukf. |
+1
u are right with this post. I think it would be a good chance to test things with the LM on the WBP Team.
Why deal one single rocket from the LM so much dmg? one single rocket wipe often easily a Ost 4 model squad... or a team wepoan like the pak or mg. Why?
it is a hand moved unit...so it can´t be to heavy ..so it cant deal dmg like 280mm rockets drom stuka.. (wtf!?)
...it doesn't. A lot of people would probably take a Stuka over a land mattress.
|
What have "fucking tulip rockets" and pwerfer/matress barages in common ?
My point is that 8 seconds is a really long time and he's way over exaggerating the pwerfer rocket delay. Tulip rockets have nothing to do with it, I just used as a comparison. |
Guards have always been about their PTRS. The only times I've seen them actually be strong AI units is when they have no DP-28s and they've dropped all their PTRS. (No DP-28s so they can fire on the move. LMGs are mostly defensive weapons unless used en masse.)
For some reason I remember Penals having flamers and 3x PPSh and it was removed because it was considered way too powerful. I think that was combined with their old vet though.
I actually find guards to be a really good long range "hold the line" typey unit. They get durability and resistance to explosives since they are a 6 man squad, and the double dps+double ptrs does really good damage to infantry and light vehicles, and they can button and finish overextended tanks if you support them. Also, they're in guard motor tactics, one of the most versatile commanders out there imo. They just aren't that mobile, and I always felt that them having nades is weird for that reason. I honestly use the nades more as a defensive countermeasure to stgs or flamers than an offensive tool. |
Penals are Short/medium range without PPSH Flamer Package anyway. So it doesn't really change their role that much, just throws in the anti-cover/garrison weapon. PTRS penals also don't have the strength of 2x Bazookas or PIAT's, despite the investment, so it's not like you can just spam them against armour. They're more of a support unit, to open up the use of Tier1 against early vehicles, they then continue to provide good defensive anti-vehicle support. The concept of "I'll just solve all my problems with Penal spam because they're so versatile" just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny in competitive play. Play some matches against good opponents and you'll see, they are not Riflemen.
Even if we could, I don't like the idea of non-doctrinal Conscript PTRS. Conscripts are way more spammable and have far more utility than Penals. Cheesy stuff like 7x Conscript spam with PTRS would actually be viable, and that is scary. Anymore than 4x Penals is just suicide.
I see your point as to why it's a good idea. I'm still not really sure how I feel about it, but it does definitely seem balanced, so that's a plus. IIRC the penals ptrs does a decent amount of deflection damage, so it's got that and accuracy over bazookas right? Although wasn't ptrs conscript spam doable via the tank hunters commander? |
I haven't used Guards much in the patch because I've been dicking around with PTRS Penals + Shocks (and For the Motherland).
Flamer + PPSH package works nicely now that the squad isn't quite as durable with vet.
PTRS package is mostly a great idea, it compliments Shocks and PPSH cons really well.
The issue now is that Penals have become a sort of do-all unit. Long range, short range, anti-garrison, anti-vehicle, its all in the Penal's repertoire. While I do appreciate stock Soviets having infantry AT since it does open up a few otherwise meh doctrines, I wish Cons had gotten the PTRS instead (out of scope, I know).
How come penal ptrs is in scope but cons ptrs isn't? That's partially my gripe with soviets right now: penals are better at everything than cons except for dying. Hell they even do that better with their vet1 passive. |
|
To be clear, I just want to foster some discussion and see what players think about my views. |
|
In the live version they're really really fucking good. No denying that, and the nerfs were warranted. I like the fact that they changed the flamer to add 3x ppshs so its not just a no-brainer upgrade anymore, but I'm still not totally on board with ptrs penals simply because of the overlap with guards. I kinda don't understand the nerfs to guards though, as they were already somewhat expensive, and 4 of their weapons require being stationary to fire. They also seem kinda squishy despite being a six man squad (might just be the fact that they are often fighting anti-infantry vehicles though). I mean, sure, guards are pretty highly used right now but I don't really think they are overpowered at all. |
After the LM getting nerfed, this unit is pretty much balanced. This unit, NOT these units. 1 LM, to be honest, it's not really a problem, same with 1 Panzerwerfer, 1 Stuka, 1 Katyusha or 1 Calliope. However, when there are more than 1 of each of these units on the field, the balance matter just gone. Look it like this, LM has a rather big area of effect but with its rather large scatter, you can actually dodge its barrage or at least have the majority of your units survive, just being damaged, and that's how these units suppose to work! They force a defensive line to reposition itself! They allow your attack force to make a breakthrough, NOT be the breakthrough!
Now, when the enemy get 2 or more of these things, for example, 2 LMs barrage at the same time would increase its potential to hit since while one's barrage might scatter a lot, the second one will sure to fill the gap. That's why the LM or any rocket arty unit just seem so ridiculously OP! It would be better if you can only field ONE rocket arty and can only get another if one get destroyed. Seriously, it kinda sad to see this "rocket arty spam" meta is still a thing, not saying it's no-brainer or anything, but it just make the game seem stale, just hold out till you get a whole bunch of rocket arty (Both sides, actually, even though I try to not get any where near it, but my teammate and the enemy will do it eventually).
Especially in 3v3+, I agree that this is a huge problem. Just makes the game stale as you said. |
Try Pwerfer against against 1 conscript squad next time. Do the same with land matress. Count seconds til they both kill 1 squad. This is one of most important things.
That, and its nowhere near 8 seconds. That's a long fucking time. Tulip rockets don't even stun for 8 seconds. |
0
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
