[Feedback Needed] So explain to me...

Jump back to quoted post30 Oct 2013, 18:41 PMlink0

I disagree with the OP on everything. T1-T4 play is pretty much only viable on Langres. SU-85s are terrible on any map with a lot of shot blockers.

Outside of bullshit RNG rolls, like a 120mm wiping out squads or getting a heavy engine damage on your tiger by an AT nade, the better player usually wins. This latest patch is probably the best balance I've ever seen ANY Relic game, ever (and I've played them all at a top level).

Jump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 17:51 PM=][=mmortal

Edit: This thread is an evolving flow of my thoughts on the matter, but the point of this post is to draw community awareness to my belief that the current design of the game is subtly flawed and needs addressing, in particular regard to the soviet faction. Any tips or feedback you can give me on my attached replay is welcome too!

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You've probably seen a post claiming one side is too strong 100x here already, but I affirm this is not another clueless whine thread. I've sunk 500 games into high elo+ ostheer play, and among many others, have beat the streaming celebrities' soviet multiple times each. I have seen what works and doesnt, and know how to micro.

I'm genuinely looking for quality feedback on both my play and the state of the coh2 meta.

Check out this replay for a tough game and a perfect example of what I mean.
REPLAY HERE

Explain to me how to beat the synergy of soviet HTD scripts/at nades + guards + snipers + su85 + 30mun mines + munition float for whatever you want (cough strafe cough) in a 1v1.


Abstract
This is a long post because the situation is very complicated and requires numerous examples so you understand where I am coming from.

1. The soviet meta is fundamentally slightly OP when played by a pro because the units and economy synergize perfectly with their commanders and each other. The germans lack hard counters to certain units at various stages of the game, such as the inevitable t70 rush. Germans lack commanders, other than AG or ostruppen, that allow for radically different builds.

2. The imbalance comes from the sum total of small aspects about the many soviet units and meta that are strong acting in concert, and come to the fore when facing someone with good micro. Its less that a particular unit is game breaking than the entire faction under its current design is slightly OP because of how the parts all fit together.

3. New players will have trouble playing soviets because 1 on 1 units will lose to their ostheer counterpart. On the other hand a pro with good micro can use every unit's strengths and abilities at the same time for perfect combined arms. I don't believe the germans have an equivalent meta that flourishes in high level play and rewards skillful micro to that extent.

Everyone likes to claim german is OP because it takes less skill to use them... but that myth is brought back to reality when high level play just demonstrates the units arent strong enough to handle soviet role specialization (snipers, su85s, t70s) in a close match, short of a significant failure in play by soviet micro.

What I really want to see from this game in the future is the redesign of cheese units/abilities on both sides (looking at you ostruppen, precision strike, and t70s), what the german commanders in particular bring to the table meta wise, and the leveling of the economies to make a munition point just as valuable for a sov player as for a ostheer player. Risk/reward and unit counters at different stages of the game need to be looked into. COH is not a franchise like supreme commander where its fun to see units instantly pop to a flying death laser... the fun comes from being able to react and counter-attack.

I think when this incremental and gradual process moves along, the game will be more competitive and more fun for everyone. I don't favor either faction balance wise because both have rough edges that need smoothing. My point is that as far as I can tell now, the soviets simply need more changes or a redesign.

Relic and the community should admit this and make a coherent plan going forward to address the meta in the game. This thread is attempting to draw awareness to the need.

And at the end of the day its just my opinion, but I wouldn't post it without giving the issue careful thought and signing it as my honest opinion to improve the game for everyone, favoring neither ostheer or sov players


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MYTH: Soviet t4 rushes are countered by a competitive early game to prevent quick t4 unit proliferation.

REALITY: The reality is and has always been that soviet t4 is cheap enough to get with only a single fuel point held before or at the same time as german t3, or even t2. Not t4, but t3! Germans won't get t4 out except in a troll game or a desperate attempt to counter su85s like in my replay, which failed horribly.

Soviet early game is not hampered by teching as their t0 building provides all the utility they need to go toe to toe with t1 and t2 ostheer with doctrinal support.

For all intents and purposes the soviets have two t3s that they can choose between as they like. Many players would rush a t70 and then spam su85s because the cost of getting both buildings if you have 1 fuel reliably is basically irrelevant if you are holding your own.

1. Panthers cost twice as much mp as a su85 and 15 more fuel. Not including the fuel cost of the t4 upgrade and building. Panthers are not a hard counter to su85s IMO, which out range them and whose guns can penetrate frontal armor fairly reliably.

2. Soviets can afford to skip t3 because aside from a squishy and easily killed FHT (mines, guards, at nades, whatever), there is no rushed unit they need to be worried about.

3. People have been so busy spamming t70s/t34s that the old meta has fallen out of favor, not because its not OP anymore but because people got bored of it.

MYTH: Long ranged direct fire units are balanced

REALITY:
1. Weapon range is the single most important vehicle stat in coh2, and often with range comes weapon power per shot. The ability to shoot across the map from beyond a monitor's width of screen resolution negates any downside to move speed. This problem is not limited to the su85 alone, but the elefant is also stupidly long ranged.
2. Soviets have many long range options that feed each other, specifically snipers for AI and su85 for AT, with an su76 for fun if you want quick IDF. 120mm outranges 81mm mortars, and the precision strike ability is button to get a free kill on whatever squad is trying to cap a point or use a support weapon.
3. The unit cap is not that high in coh2, especially for ostheer with 4 man squad limits. Combined arms become extremely difficult to pull off when your squads and vehicles are picked off or forced to retreat one by one by snipers/su85s before even handling the rest of the support units on the field. Losing a vehicle or a couple squads from your attack to sniper units means you are permanently on the defensive and being pushed off the map.
4. Certain maps like langres, mowscow outskirts, pripyat winter and minsk pocket really emphasize the advantages of supported long range units.


Example One: 30 munition mines for a faction that doesnt require regular munition use to stay competitive leads to lane denial and map control, that in the long run, will lead to an even larger munition/fuel/vp? lead over the ostheer player. Lack of munitions will make it harder for an ostheer to field LMGs or rifle nades, which can be required to deal with conscripts using HTD and PPSH. The german completely lack a useful AI mine, especially at that price point. It would be much less effective against soviet squad sizes of 6. Losing 1-2 conscripts does not force a retreat like losing 2-3 grens does.

Example Two: No real hard counter exists for sov sniper teams. Soviet snipers are not vulnerable to counter sniping. Soft counters like AC and 81mm mortars are stopped dead by supporting units/mines and the luck factor. German snipers face more perils in use as they are a 1 man squad, squishy vs IDF (120mm precision strike anyone?, or just unlucky RNG), many IDF cdr abilities, zis IDF, su76 IDF, whatever.
Sov snipers synergize well with 30 munition mines because they can instantly pick off the survivors of a planned ambush with impunity and almost no time to react. In this example the soviet sniper's dps is fine, what is OP is the fact that 30 munition mines are not a risky proposition for a soviet player to use. The risk/reward proportion is out of balance for that item and sov snipers take advantage of that.

Example Three: Near and dear to my heart is the fact that without molotovs, ostheer are unable to reliably control key buildings on certain maps in t0. Every game devolves into a rush by players to stand next to a fuel/cutoff's building in case the enemy shows up. Jump inside, win. Difference is the germans can be forced out by soviet molotovs. If you dont rush your fuel defensively as a german, you WILL be cutoff 2 mins
in and vulnerable to t70 rushes. GG.

Jump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 17:51 PM=][=mmortal

REALITY:
1. Weapon range is the single most important vehicle stat in coh2,

Soviet early game is not hampered by teching as their t0 building provides all the utility they need to go toe to toe with t1 and t2 ostheer with doctrinal support.

Jump back to quoted post26 Oct 2013, 18:23 PM=][=mmortal

My tl;dr is not t70t70t70, but I bring it up because its the current flavor of the month that everyone, new and old player alike, is using because there isnt a hard counter for it 10 mins in for the ostheer.