Sov versatility seems to derive from unit abilities and Commanders.
Whereas Ost versatility is provided by the linear tech path.
I dont agree at all... i think ur just fumbling for reasons because you dont want to admit the truth Nullist.
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Sov versatility seems to derive from unit abilities and Commanders.
Whereas Ost versatility is provided by the linear tech path.
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I dont agree at all... i think ur just fumbling for reasons because you dont want to admit the truth Nullist.
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In the final analysis, Soviets can be considered to be as effective as Ostheer if you have above average micro to avoid the manpower drain of conscript reinforcement and losing snipers. Germans are balanced if you have average micro.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
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@Sluz: I think the linear nature of Ost teching and builds provides a stronger base with which to react. You generally have everything you may need readily available, if you can micro well enough to have resources to purchase them.
Conversly, and asymmetrically to this, as Sov, you need to deliberately choose those options, to have them available. When you have chosen them, they perform slightly better, overall, than Osts generalised equivalents, at those specific tasks. The micro challenge comes in, at making use of those specialised choices, specifically for those tasks vs Osts more generalised options.
Now, there are an number of theoretical situations one can setup, artificially, for discussions sake, to demonstrate that that doesnt pan out, but I think that is the underlying design precept, and one that should be remembered when gauging IF Sov units and Ost units, asymmetrically, are actually following that central design concept, or not.
Units like the T70, for which Ost has no light tank equivalent. Or the SU76 as a glass cannon artillery option, and ZiS Barrage, are all indicative of this underlying versatility concept that Im proposing is the case.
I think there are problems on Sov with the tech division between t2 and t3, which are actually lateral, rather than progressive. There is something problematic in the unit division between these two buildings, that leaves Sov vulnerable to Osts solid and comprehensive, and generalised, teching. If you make the wrong choice, you are fucked, whereas with Ost, you can srill build counters and initiative units feom your existing tech base.
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Because 4 man squads constantly retreating to nades/snipers/else and reinforcing is less a manpower drain than replacing a conscript model??
I don't buy the micro argument. Both sides will suck if you cant control your forces, however you are confusing the strength of soviet specialist units (snipers, blah blah) as a weakness. They dont require "more" micro... but they do become very powerful with good micro. Countering a supported and well micro'd sov sniper or two on langreskaya is a feat in itself.
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The units that the soviet's can build VERY early game:
Conscripts: (harassing light infantry and a way to reinforce heavier troops in the field, bad against other infantry, tanks, light vehicles
Combat Engineers: (4 man squad armed with rifles, can plant demos and place mines, lose against all German units bar pioneers at long range, same price as conscripts.)
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The units that the Germans can build VERY early game:
Grenadiers: (infantry deigned to counter other infantry, can be upgraded with MG42's to kill a conscript a second, same price as conscripts, and will win in 1v1 combat against them with moderate to no losses)
MG42: (instapins infantry out of cover, forcing them to retreat same price as grens and can only be tackled with flanks)
German Mortar: (fast firing, accurate, and kills 3-4 squad members on a successful hit, same price as grens)
German Sniper: (armor shrugs off all shots apart from really lucky hits, 1 hit kills all infantry)
Osttruppen: (weak infantry with the ability to kill scout cars with ease, loses against all other infantry bar engineer units
Assault Grens (fast firing, fast moving, shock troops designed to get early map control with ease, wins against all soviet units bar DP upgraded guards, and shock troops.)
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Soviet Mid-Game
T1 (loses to vehicle heavy doctrines due to lack of AT gun, T4 almost a nessesity unless opponent is really unlucky and or bad)
Sniper Squad (2 man sniper squad, counters german snipers 75% of time if the enemy is not in heavy cover, 1 unit dies from a MG42 blast at long range, cloak does not carry from cover to cover unlike the german sniper, counter MG42's effectively
Penal Battalion (infantry squad with around the same HP and Armour values as conscripts, effective mid to long range, can blow enemy squad up with a satchel charge (somtimes themselves, too!) outright loses to PG's of equal vet, MG42 gren
Clown car: (practically gets one shotted by panzerfausts unless high vet, next to useless unless opponent is doing assault grens only)
T2 (loses to infantry heavy builds, outright, counters tank heavy builds)
ZIS: (anti tank gun with slightly worse damage than a pak, six models
Mortar (soviet mortar worse in every way than the german one apart from the 6 models)
Maxim (soviet machine gun easily flanked, 6 models)
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German Mid Game
T2
Pak: (Counters soviet tanks)
Panzergren's: (counters soviet infantry)
Scout Car: (counters sovet mortars, snipers, maxims)
halftrack: (counters all infantry with the fuhrer's holy fire; reinforces all german infantrty)
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Soviet T3
T34: anti infantry tank, countered by T2, T3, T4
M5: transport and anti aircraft, countered by T2, T3, and T4, not as nearly as effective as German counterpart (flammenwerfer)
T70: light tank designed to inflict squad wipes, countered by t2, t3, and t4
Soviet T4
SU-85: mobile anti tank, countered by T2
Rocket Truck: mobile artillery, extremely effective againt infantry blobs, useless if a enemy squad gets near it
Su-76: Mobile assault gun, good artillery ability, countered by t2, t3, and t4
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German T3
STUG: (counters t34's at long range, t70's outright.)
Ostwind: (Counters all soviet infantry)
P4: (highly spammable, flexibile tank, capable of AT, AI and stopping harassment)
German T4
Panther: (hard counter to all soviet tanks bar the IS2)
Brummbar: (hard counter to all soviet infantry, needs AT support
Panzerwerfer: mobile artillery, vulnerable to most soviet units, has MG.
Look me in the eyes and tell me the germans don't have a clear, undisputed advantage in 1v1.
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198016893993
Proof i'm not a soviet fanboy.
i'm just a concerned player that has gone down almost 1000 ladder positions since these last few updates on the soviet side.
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In the final analysis, Soviets can be considered to be as effective as Ostheer if you have above average micro to avoid the manpower drain of conscript reinforcement and losing snipers. Germans are balanced if you have average micro.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
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That describes vCOH very well too.
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Permanently BannedThis is not a rhetorical question, I expect a coherent and concise answer.
A) Where does Ost flexibility reside?
B) Where does Sov flexibility reside?
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Rubbers, you didnt answer my two specific questions yet.
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Aaand another person who wont answer a direct question.
Seems to be very difficult for some people these days.
Dunno. For me it was a necessary skill I learned in school.
Either you answered your test questions specifically and relevantly, using the proper syntax, Or you failed. Maybe that is no longer the case and kids just run around saying "no, im not gonna answer your question".
A) Where does Ost flexibility reside?
B) Where does Sov flexibility reside?
Seemed simple enough to me. But I guess not.
Dont answer then.
--->
Posts: 598
Aaand another person who wont answer a direct question.
Seems to be very difficult for some people these days.
Dunno. For me it was a necessary skill I learned in school.
Either you answered your test questions specifically and relevantly, using the proper syntax, Or you failed. Maybe that is no longer the case and kids just run around saying "no, im not gonna answer your question".
A) Where does Ost flexibility reside?
B) Where does Sov flexibility reside?
Seemed simple enough to me. But I guess not.
Dont answer then.
--->
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Posts: 480
your post is well organized but there are also a lot of holes making it look one sided. grenadiers pretty much have the same role as conscripts. they are not specifically designed to counter infantry the mg42 upgrade is just OP.
you say that ostruppen can take down scout cars with ease. do you realize that the conscripts AT nade does exactly the same thing? so you should also state that conscripts take scout cars with ease as well. since panzerfaust and conscript AT nade has the same range except the conscripts has the advantage since they can oorah.
the soviet maxim mg immediately suppresses enemy infantry and it could reposition itself a lot faster.
the soviet halftrack can suppress infantry pretty quick. the german half track doesn't suppress at all.
saying that these units are countered by t2, t3, t4 isn't specific and it doesn't help. hell you can also say panthers are countered by t2.
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