German flexibility vs Soviet flexibility

The units that the soviet's can build VERY early game:

Conscripts: (harassing light infantry and a way to reinforce heavier troops in the field, bad against other infantry, tanks, light vehicles

Combat Engineers: (4 man squad armed with rifles, can plant demos and place mines, lose against all German units bar pioneers at long range, same price as conscripts.)

__________________________________________________________________________________________
The units that the Germans can build VERY early game:

Grenadiers: (infantry deigned to counter other infantry, can be upgraded with MG42's to kill a conscript a second, same price as conscripts, and will win in 1v1 combat against them with moderate to no losses)
MG42: (instapins infantry out of cover, forcing them to retreat same price as grens and can only be tackled with flanks)
German Mortar: (fast firing, accurate, and kills 3-4 squad members on a successful hit, same price as grens)
German Sniper: (armor shrugs off all shots apart from really lucky hits, 1 hit kills all infantry)
Osttruppen: (weak infantry with the ability to kill scout cars with ease, loses against all other infantry bar engineer units
Assault Grens (fast firing, fast moving, shock troops designed to get early map control with ease, wins against all soviet units bar DP upgraded guards, and shock troops.)

Look me in the eyes and tell me the germans don't have a clear, undisputed advantage in 1v1.


http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198016893993
Proof i'm not a soviet fanboy.
i'm just a concerned player that has gone down almost 1000 ladder positions since these last few updates on the soviet side.


EDIT: i listed every unit in COH2, people thought that was too much, shorted it to early game units to make my point heard better

I play Soviets, and this is not looking at this fairly.

ZIS: (anti tank gun with slightly worse damage than a pak, six models
Pak: (Counters soviet tanks)

The ZiS is also more useful due to Wehr use of scout cars and halftracks, both of which it can decimate. Also the ZiS barrage is an incredibly potent ability that it starts out with, whereas it very difficult to have a Pak around till vet 1 to use its HEAT rounds.

Also, in my opinion the Soviet mortar is better than the German mortar due to the smaller size squads of the Germans and the precision strike ability. Counterbarrage is mediocre at best, and not even comparable to an ability that can one shot weapons crews.

And the T34 is not countered by T2 or even T3 alone. T34s cost less than P4s, which means that with ram you can trade up every time against the P4. Saying T2 counters T34s is like saying Russian T2 counters the P4. Yeah, you might be able to take out a P4 with AT nades and ZiS guns, but that's not reliable.
I've even killed a Tiger with 3 T34s with baiting and rear ramming. The T34 is much more versatile than people give it credit for.

And you didn't include doctrinal units on the Soviets side whereas you did for the Wehr (Osttruppen and Assault Grens). Shock Troops counter all wehr infantry if you don't run into grenades, and the 120mm mortar severely outclasses any sort of indirect fire the Wehr have until Panzerwerfers which are expensive and too hard to get out in a 1v1.

But finally, you can't compare units like this in a vacuum, it just doesn't work. Conscripts are do lose to grenadiers, but so did riflemen to PGrens in VCoH. If conscripts where the same as grens, pgrens the same as penals, engis the same as pios and so on, this game would just be another identical rts. Maintaining the different feels of the factions is critical to the games enjoyment.

i really think the game is close to being balanced. t34/85 needs a slight buff to reload/penetration. other than that i dont know how you are coming up with those comparisons. maybe you are always in red cover and the germans are in cover? also you can build your t1 or t2 right off the bat too you know? you dont have to spam cons...

guys- i'm not saying that soviet units are inherently weak- (they are, though)

the purpose of this thread is to explain that soviets, when it comes to choices, have less of them, making them an incredibly inferior faction to play

guys- i'm not saying that soviet units are inherently weak- (they are, though)

the purpose of this thread is to explain that soviets, when it comes to choices, have less of them, making them an incredibly inferior faction to play

I don't really agree with that, they just have different choices. For example, Soviets have a great deal more indirect fire options, ZiS, 82mm, 120mm, SU-76, Katyusha. Wehr has the mortar and the mortar halftrack.

Consider the way the soviet tech tree works.

You basically have a choice T1 or T2 and later your choose T3 or T4. If the Germans want a panther they have to walk their way through their tech tree T1 -> T2 -> T3 -> T4 -> Panther.

This makes Germans arguably less diverse since they can't get what they want without first going through the tiers. If I want a panther, I have to get T3 first etc.

(Hiigarians vs Vayger anyone? I prefer the Hiigarian tech tree style)

Sure soviets have to build 2-3 conscripts every game which is sort of boring I'll give you that, but that's only the first 2 minutes of the game. The first two minutes of most rts games are sort of boring.


As far as the German T1 combined arms argument, that's how it was in COH1. You had an extremely versatile unit (Riflemen) vs the combined arms Wehrmacht T1 building. What was preferable is quite debatable, since riflemen could be used throughout the entire game since they were that versatile.

Ok now for some tit for tat ranting:

Zis has the option to bombard positions. (I think the ability costs a little too much but it's there and it's useful) The German AT gun can only do one thing.

Penal battalions with flamethrower don't lose to panzer grenadiers dammit.

Snipers are pretty good since the rate of fire change and German players still complain about them.

MG42: (instapins infantry out of cover, forcing them to retreat same price as grens and can only be tackled with flanks)

That sounds so bias. MG42s have been nerfed like crazy.

M3s suck now I'll give you that. Who ever uses an M5?

I just have to say recently I have really grown to like the SU-76. It kills mg42s in buildings like nothing else. It also is good against t2 vehicles and AT guns. Not a lot of people use it which is a shame.

Not sure if you are aiming at this, but: I find it a lot easier to play with Germans than Soviet.

Playing Soviet requires constant micro and synchronizing multiple units to be effective fighting force. Its a lot easier to fall down like a house of cards, when playing Soviets. (late game)

If I am bit tired, I can still be reasonably effective playing German. Playing as Soviet my game will definitely suffer a lot more.

As far as balance, its pretty close
Flexibility, Germans have more 'utility' units. That are decent vs everything, Soviets not so much.....

Soviets have to specilize because important units lie in different buildings. You cant build all the buildings you have to select two, and they cost alot and take a very long time to build, which doenst make sense.

So half of the soviet army will always be unavailable to the soviet player, unlike germans whos units all lie in the different tiers as they tech up, they have access to all thier infantry except pgrens in thier t1 building right off the bat.

This inheritly allows for germans to be able to do much more things and have much more flexible strategies. There is no denying this fact. I feel after the soviet player makes two buildings, the others should go down in price and build time so if he so wishes, and has the extra resources, he can make a third building to get access to more of his army without putting himself behind so much in fuel that its a death sentence.


Conscripts are so bad and are just a manpower drain on the soviet player. They are outclassed in every single way and die very fast to LMG grens, and the grens can get LMG's within the first minutes of the game, which is ludacris and unbalanced. Its also not doctrinal like the only way soviets have of upgrading conscripts so they can fight back (PPsh). Also, soviet players have to pay 250 man power and 50 fuel just so that thier conscripts can have the same abilities as grens do for free right off the bat.

Combat Engineers for some reason cost more than thier counterpart pioneers. And build times are ludacris which is why 90% of all soviet players have to start out spamming conscripts, which are outclassed in every way especially since losing thier bulletins in the past patch.


I play both and am decently ranked with both, and I know without fanboyism, that germans are slighty overpowered and you can just do so much more with them, they are more fun, they are able to dictate the flow of battle because of the sheer number of possible strategys they can use and the soviet always seems to have to counter them.

Tiger tanks are way too tough and powerful for only being 200 fuel, many times have i had all the fuel on the map and still my enemy is able to call in a tiger and use it to eventually win the game, since when its vet 1 ability comes up its way too strong. Multiple Zis's + su85's wont kill this thing in time because 80% of the shots will be deflected. Its an easy "I win" button that works unless your really bad or your against overwhelming odds and have no luck.

All german armor outclasses soviet armor in every way, but soviets dont even have the AT options germans have with thier panzershreks. Also blitzkreig STILL works when your engine is damaged while ram doesnt, and the devs have known about this and still havent fixed it.

It all doesnt make much sense to me, and how the devs and community can think this is 100% balanced is beyond logic, the people who say this only play german so they wouldnt know. Soviet is hard mode for sure. I can go on and on about balance but it will fall on fanboy ears and make no difference.

Highly ranked german player and decent ranked soviet player, i play both
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198096023775

Soviets have to specilize because important units lie in different buildings. You cant build all the buildings you have to select two, and they cost alot and take a very long time to build, which doenst make sense.

Well that might be a legitimate concern. 90 fuel in a 1v1 isn't just something you can get from nowhere.

Maybe you are supposed to use doctrine units for versatility?

Well that might be a legitimate concern. 90 fuel in a 1v1 isn't just something you can get from nowhere.

Maybe you are supposed to use doctrine units for versatility?

all you got is Gaurds or Shocks, and some commanders dont even have call ins.

Why does soviet have to rely on call ins while german always has access to all thier units?

I think alot of balance issues would be fixed if they nerfed or did some kind of change to the LMG for grens, and if they made is so soviets can make thier buildings at half the build time it is now and a much lower price after thier second building is made, so that they can get other units they need if they have to without screwing up the balance of how fast players can get certain units to the field. (like tanks)

just played against a prick who spammed assault grens and grens and then spammed pg's and then spammed p4s?

what kinda stuff did i have to counter it? molotov carrying meatsacks and maxims who spin around in circles, and AT guns that just get taken by the enemy

3 t34's lost a RNG slug out fest with a p4

shit's fucked

just played against a prick who spammed assault grens and grens and then spammed pg's and then spammed p4s?

what kinda stuff did i have to counter it? molotov carrying meatsacks and maxims who spin around in circles, and AT guns that just get taken by the enemy

3 t34's lost a RNG slug out fest with a p4

shit's fucked

I'm sorry but if you lose three T34's to one P4, you are incredibly bad.

I'm sorry but if you lose three T34's to one P4, you are incredibly bad.

fuck you too cunt

all of the shots deflected, he just reversed and shot at my t34 front armour, all his shots penetrated.

fuck you too cunt

Little tiger's true stripes are beginning to show.

Ontopic: With anyone of those 3 T34s you could/should have rammed, and easily taken the win.

Little tiger's true stripes are beginning to show.

Ontopic: With anyone of those 3 T34s you could/should have rammed, and easily taken the win.

if i rammed he'd either use blitzkrieg (the p4 was vet2), or smoke, thus resulting in engine over heat

if i rammed he'd either use blitzkrieg (the p4 was vet2)

Yes, engine dmg should limit Blitzkrieg movement speed.
Hopefully one day it will.

Smoke, thus resulting in engine over heat

If you Ram from an angle where LoS is not obscured by Smoke, it wont interrupt it.

Yes, engine dmg should limit Blitzkrieg movement speed.
Hopefully one day it will.


If you Ram from an angle where LoS is not obscured by Smoke, it wont interrupt it.

>___________ < < <
(p4) (my 3 t34's)

it wasn't the optimal situation to be in i, i agree, but i was already chasing him i thought i might as well trade a t34 for a p4, but all my shots were deflecting, thats the problem, albeit not a very good tactical decision it should've still given me less or more the effect i desired, but instead this RNG bullshit caused me to lose

>___________ < < <
(p4) (my 3 t34's)

it wasn't the optimal situation to be in i, i agree, but i was already chasing him i thought i might as well trade a t34 for a p4, but all my shots were deflecting, thats the problem, albeit not a very good tactical decision it should've still given me less or more the effect i desired, but instead this RNG bullshit caused me to lose

No. You being bad caused you to lose. Three T34's vs one P4 is a win to the T34's, ALL DAY EVERY DAY, unless you are bad.

guys- i'm not saying that soviet units are inherently weak- (they are, though)

Sov versatility seems to derive from unit abilities and Commanders.

Whereas Ost versatility is provided by the linear tech path.