There are top tier German players going against top tier Soviet players, and you know what? The imbalances described in this thread are represented in various win ratio stats already posted in this topic and other threads.
Sure, a top tier Soviet player will wipe the floor with most random German players, and vice versa. You see that on streams all the time.
An essay on Soviets and a radical proposal
17 Oct 2013, 05:20 AM
#101
Posts: 401
17 Oct 2013, 10:22 AM
#102
Posts: 647
i would put it that german army is more user friendly than soviet army.
for instance, a clear solid generalist infantrymen that can take on most soviet infantry.
effective armour on tanks due to the fact that soviet most guns have shitty penetration/damage.
tanks armed with powerful guns that have no problems penetrating soviet armour.
lastly, access to non doctrinal heavy tanks that soviet army is inadquately equipped to destroy.
while as for the soviet army, most counters are soft counters and unwieldy, there are few hard counters.
for example, against grenadiers, a combination of maxims and conscripts is a standard counter.
against tanks, fast halftrack, conscripts/guards for disable, while AT guns to take it down.
for heavy tanks, multiple investments into AT guns, su85 with guards/conscripts to disable and keep grenadiers/panzergrens away. put down a couple of mines for good measure to prevent flanks.
see the difference in micro level needed?
for instance, a clear solid generalist infantrymen that can take on most soviet infantry.
effective armour on tanks due to the fact that soviet most guns have shitty penetration/damage.
tanks armed with powerful guns that have no problems penetrating soviet armour.
lastly, access to non doctrinal heavy tanks that soviet army is inadquately equipped to destroy.
while as for the soviet army, most counters are soft counters and unwieldy, there are few hard counters.
for example, against grenadiers, a combination of maxims and conscripts is a standard counter.
against tanks, fast halftrack, conscripts/guards for disable, while AT guns to take it down.
for heavy tanks, multiple investments into AT guns, su85 with guards/conscripts to disable and keep grenadiers/panzergrens away. put down a couple of mines for good measure to prevent flanks.
see the difference in micro level needed?
17 Oct 2013, 11:01 AM
#103
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned Only unit I see as disproportionately requiring micro, is the unsung Su76. And even that comparison is only as valid, as the fact that Ost simply doesnt have an equivalent unit quite like it, that would then also require that kind of micro finesse.
17 Oct 2013, 11:06 AM
#104
Posts: 1042
I've tried the SU-76M a lot. It just doesn't cut it. 1 P4 and they just die with vehicle pathing what it is... They just feed a P4 vet tbh...
17 Oct 2013, 12:18 PM
#105
Posts: 647
su76 is an arty piece, use it like one. it is amazing with its indirect fire.
17 Oct 2013, 13:17 PM
#106
Posts: 862
Anyone who acts like they can play german afk and beat anyone by just making 5 grens with LMGs before pulling 3 tigers out of their ass needs to wise up. Go play a top tier soviet player, I promise you its not that easy
This misses a point that is fundamental to the COMMERCIAL success of a COH game. Which is that the vast majority of players, including the vast majority of multi-players, are not top tier. If the game isn't balanced for the average player then you will lose much of your player base.
That won't affect the high-level play one bit... except that it affects commercial success. And Relic support will disappear, as will any hope for a COH3 in the future, if there isn't commercial success.
So let's not hold up top tier players as the goal for balance. By definition, if we want a successful franchise that continues to support the community, we should want balance for the average players.
17 Oct 2013, 13:47 PM
#107
Posts: 879
I tend to agree with AvNY. If your game is balanced only for 1v1, that should be the only automatch mode available. I think sadly Relic's credibility has been really damaged for a lot of casuals. But judging by the win/loss ratios of the top 100 or so, even 1v1 isn't perfect so arguably that should be fixed first.
2v2 and up tended to be better in COH1 because rifles were better. One guy went bars, the other went WSC. That synergy extended into 3v3 and 4v4 making those modes playable. In 2v2 in COH2 a conscript/sniper combo doesn't pack quite the same punch. I have seen some creative uses of aggressive Maxim usage backing scout cars/snipers but this combo is easily countered by T2 vehicles but can be very powerful.
What does seem to work is super aggressive conscript spam and building rushing all across the map, but again, if early and total map control isn't established, that strat falls apart as soon as Panzergrens and vehicles hit the field.
2v2 and up tended to be better in COH1 because rifles were better. One guy went bars, the other went WSC. That synergy extended into 3v3 and 4v4 making those modes playable. In 2v2 in COH2 a conscript/sniper combo doesn't pack quite the same punch. I have seen some creative uses of aggressive Maxim usage backing scout cars/snipers but this combo is easily countered by T2 vehicles but can be very powerful.
What does seem to work is super aggressive conscript spam and building rushing all across the map, but again, if early and total map control isn't established, that strat falls apart as soon as Panzergrens and vehicles hit the field.
17 Oct 2013, 13:47 PM
#108
Posts: 976
This is my experience also and my micro is quite mediocre.
I can work in my sweat to try and pull off a victory as SU. When I switch to german side, I can have breakfast or lunch as I play and still win.
That just doesn't feel right. I'm all for having two diverse factions, but the overall difficulty of playing them should be about the same IMO.
Exactly, Germans are easier to play by far.
VoltarDark
Long live to COH3, the new king of all team RTS !
Long live to COH3, the new king of all team RTS !
17 Oct 2013, 15:14 PM
#109
Posts: 862
I tend to agree with AvNY. If your game is balanced only for 1v1, that should be the only automatch mode available. I think sadly Relic's credibility has been really damaged for a lot of casuals. But judging by the win/loss ratios of the top 100 or so, even 1v1 isn't perfect so arguably that should be fixed first.
My argument wasn't really 1v1 vs 2v2 but that balance has to be for average players, not just top tier. If you are only balanced for top tier you are excluding a huge part of the market (and this is, after all, a product).
98% of users are not "top tier" micro, and probably most of the avid players aren't. One can even argue that the player base would be larger (though the average skill level commensurately lower) if there was more balance at lower skill levels.
To be a commercial success (and we want it to be a commercial success) you have to balance the mid-range as well. Of course it still has to reward better strategy and micro. vCOH did this very well. In fact brilliantly in that a better strategy would beat better micro, so it always remaind a strategy game.
I didn't say it would be easy, but I do think it needs to be the goal.
17 Oct 2013, 17:04 PM
#110
Posts: 879
Yeah, I agree, that's what the original post is about. Soviets are harder to play and the tiering system is as awkward as a trailer-trash girl from Kentucky in a five-star restaurant in Paris.
The argument for balancing for the highest skill set is that that balance should trickle down just fine. I just disagree that it is totally balanced even at the 1v1 top 10% level, so fix that first then look at other issues that could make it more balanced for casual players, particularly the 3v3 and 4v4 map resource levels and placement.
The argument for balancing for the highest skill set is that that balance should trickle down just fine. I just disagree that it is totally balanced even at the 1v1 top 10% level, so fix that first then look at other issues that could make it more balanced for casual players, particularly the 3v3 and 4v4 map resource levels and placement.
17 Oct 2013, 20:32 PM
#111
Posts: 409
I agree with the OP, let's just bring back the vcoh American tech tree (some adjustments should be made to ost to compensate, of course).
Right now soviet rifle building is one big gimmicky cheese troll fest: super good when it works, super bad when it doesn't.
Right now soviet rifle building is one big gimmicky cheese troll fest: super good when it works, super bad when it doesn't.
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