An essay on Soviets and a radical proposal

soviets are unforgiving.
no comeback possible against good players in 2v2
if you make few mistakes in first 10 minutes you are dead its over

more over soviets need doctrinal units to defeat german not doctrinal units.
the unit composition is stupid with low flexibilty. poor unit desing
PG superior to any soviet units, why? foolish
t34 is good vs inf and some AT, why? you have t70 for anti inf, foolish
t3 has no dedicated AT, german t3 has, why? foolish

make lmg doctrinal same as ppsh
move flamerwalfer to t3, move ostwind and p4 to T4
make panther doctrinal
make penals equal to PG but different

soviets now are ridiculous a clown army with few strong units that if you don't take them you lose 100%.
if you don't have t2 up and you lose early game you loose
why soviet t1 and t2 so expensive?
why?
foolish

as germans i have 67% victory rate when i hardly play germans i am probably much worse at it compared to soviets, it doesn't matter wins come easy

This is actually the approach my 2v2 partner and I have adopted and it's risky but it can work. We actually do it with me leaning heavily on T2/T3 and he going T1/T4. The key is if they do start to get panthers/tigers out you need to have several T34's and be willing to use ram to disable them and have the SU-85's finish them off. You have to make sure you use the ram in a situation where you're almost certain to kill the panther otherwise it'll be a net loss. There is also luck involved since you're not guaranteed to damage the engine.

Sadly if you can't pull this off it's pretty much GG against a smart team. Once they hit critical mass with the panthers you won't be able to stop them even if you have an equal or even greater amount of SU-85's. They'll blitz right past your SU-85/ZiS defense and once you get those units turning it's over. Guards won't be able to stop them long enough, and late game mines are harder to keep up with arty blanketing much of the field.

Even worse on many of the maps is the Elephant. On the maps with lanes/choke points these things can deny a huge portion of the map to any Soviet armor which makes them next to impossible to kill if they're supported well. You pretty much have to get lucky with an arty/bombing strike since you'll never get armor anywhere near them and you have no AT infantry capable of doing significant damage to it.

Thanks, bro. Hopefully some of that will give inspirarion to other Sov teams.

Funny thing about Panthers, is they are hard to push out in 1v1, but apparently end up coming out in packs in 2v2+.
One of the problems with this game not being optimised for those mode I guess.

But it seems the persistant challenge, is impairing/halting/slowing that inevitable Panther blob before it can achieve, as you said, critical mass, and start rolling down your line with so much armor that its not possible to bring enough AT to bear fast enough.

Whether thatnis by pushing t2-3 harder, or by making sure you dmg/disable as many of those Panthers as they are built before, in sum total, they are an unstoppable blob, or by otherwise crippling Ost economic accumalation, thats where its at. Preventing that critical mass from accumalating.

In regard to which, when I watched Ivam and Andy play, they made THEIR critical mass out of T70s, in an earlier tier.
Its just as effective, even though it lacks AT, because at that point, the opponent doesnt have any tanks!
I didnt see the matches from Sturmtiger team perspective, but presumably they also where trying to fast tech to Panthers, but they never got there.

you know what the silly thing is

(i know its generalising)

they have tanks and pioneers endgame and population cap reached
and no real infantry power to cap points

sometimes it works and they baserush, sometimes it doesn't, 4V4 pickup games don't have much organisation, which sucks for soviets.
steppes map for ex is an open field and ideal for endgame tankrush
maps with cutoff's are better cause easier defended

anyways, its a pity nothing is done for 3v3 and 4v4 because you can have epic endgame battles with endgame units, which you don't get with less players

Thanks, bro. Hopefully some of that will give inspirarion to other Sov teams.

Funny thing about Panthers, is they are hard to push out in 1v1, but apparently end up coming out in packs in 2v2+.
One of the problems with this game not being optimised for those mode I guess.

But it seems the persistant challenge, is impairing/halting/slowing that inevitable Panther blob before it can achieve, as you said, critical mass, and start rolling down your line with so much armor that its not possible to bring enough AT to bear fast enough.

Whether thatnis by pushing t2-3 harder, or by making sure you dmg/disable as many of those Panthers as they are built before, in sum total, they are an unstoppable blob, or by otherwise crippling Ost economic accumalation, thats where its at. Preventing that critical mass from accumalating.

In regard to which, when I watched Ivam and Andy play, they made THEIR critical mass out of T70s, in an earlier tier.
Its just as effective, even though it lacks AT, because at that point, the opponent doesnt have any tanks!
I didnt see the matches from Sturmtiger team perspective, but presumably they also where trying to fast tech to Panthers, but they never got there.

I agree, I rarely see Panthers in 1v1 but frequently see games with a high number (3-4) in 2v2. In 1v1 I see a lot of P4's with an occasional Tiger. I'm usually happy to see the Tiger because I simply avoid it until I get it where I want it and then I disable it with ram and keep it damaged if I can't finish it off so it's marginalized.

I'll be honest, a few weeks ago I would have been crying that Soviets were heavily UP across all the game modes. I think the recent patches have mostly helped, and I've also adjusted my strategy significantly with good success by relying more on T3 especially if I can get to it fast. I think the balance is pretty good in 1v1 (though LMG gren spam is tough...) and close in 2v2 until/if the wall of steel rolls out. Unfortunately I have no experience in higher player game modes but I can see how this issue likely magnifies the more players you add.

I do think Soviets are sorely lacking an option for a mobile tank destroyer. I'd like to see the T34/85 fill that role but it's not there currently, and it's doctrinal. I think that's the biggest issue with Soviets right now is that they're reliant on a few doctrine choices to be successful and those doctrinal units are central to any successful strat. Germans have good non-doctrinal options for both AI and AT and the doctrine choice just adds variability instead of being a necessity.

move flamerwalfer to t3, move ostwind and p4 to T4
make panther doctrinal
make penals equal to PG but different

no

Writes an essay on unit tactical abilities and strategic uses, has problem picturing how spamable Panthers/P4's that are designed for speed and flanking would have an easy time in 4v4.

Let me give you a hint, in 4v4 you don't have 4 separate 1v1 battles.... players find the weakness and exploit it. ATM, weakness is Soviets are incapable of fast response and quickly redeploying force to be effective fighting force.

Really ? Thats what you understood ? I wonder why i write anything since half the people dont read it or dont understand what they just read .

When i say good communications and sound battle planning do you understand that i mean 4v4s are 4 x 1v1 ??? Why would tyhey need all that if its just multiple 1v1s ??!! When i say taking on each other i mean it as teams not individuals !!! and i am really restraining myself not to comment on your intelligence !!!!

Oh yeah and panthers and p4s somehow dont get at naded , hit by mines , ambushed by camoed atgs , buttoned and somehow all the axis 4v4 players intuitively know how to coordinate threir efforts and panthers come out 3 mins after the game has begun and there is no history behind . Oh yeah Panthers being spammable , really ??? Please give me the links on the games i really really want to see them !!!!!



Nullist I would like to know the reasons you object to what i proposed under the consideration of having more units like the guards with hand held at , Are svts too good or what , please this is just annoying , either write your reasons

Nullist I would like to know the reasons you object to what i proposed under the consideration of having more units like the guards with hand held at , Are svts too good or what , please this is just annoying , either write your reasons

Yes, exactly because SVTs are that good.

They are infact much much better than Shocks normal PPSH at close range, and absolutely incomparable at long range.

If cheaper, and armed with SVTs, Shocks would be almost unstoppable by infantry.
I try to never exaggerate or use hyperbole, but a 2.25 armor unit with G43+ DPS, will walk right over everything un-armored.

My proposal, that I think tries to do the same thing you are, is making PTSR an upgrade available for Penals. But there seems to be very strong resistance to this, although some people see the sense behind it.

I still think Penals should get upgradeable AT too, I reckon a bazooka would be more interesting as you could make it usable against t3.

i really hope that is sarcasm because they are penal troops, not elite troops. they should not get any stronger than they are now. if they need any changes they should be a lot cheaper and not be equipped with automatic rifles.

The problem is this is a game. I don't disagree with the fact that penals don't seem to be true penal squads, and maybe they could be switched with conscripts in name or something, but I think T1 would benefit from some handheld AT.

i really hope that is sarcasm because they are penal troops, not elite troops.

In case you haven't been paying attention, Penals already outdps the living fk out of Cons.

I think that a simple solution to Penals could be another throw munition based ability similar to the satchel charge in range and approximately 60 munitions that could act as a pseudo teller mine. This doesn't compromise the basis of the unit as anti infantry.

EDIT: (After thrown it would act as a mine be detectable and removed by sweepers)

I dont think i agree with the changes you propose but I certainly do agree with the underlaying statement. I have played a few 2v2s as soviets now and you are right. it is not balanced. The only way to win is to get early dominance through risk or take a gamble and get a very limited number of shock units.

I think we need more global upgrades for the soviets. At the moment the t34 is just a poor buy. it can run inf over and ram stuff thats about it. Let me upgrade it a bit with some stuff, bigger gun, mg on top etc? or give it double speed or something. I also want to see more 2v2 balance in general in the game. I know 1v1 is getting there in terms of balance perhaps but team games are just way off! its so easy for people to follow spam tactics and completely own you. The only decent tactic i have for soviets in team games is make everyone spam mines and try get early dominance in the maps. then bum rush su85 and guards with dp's so you can get easy flanked. But ITS BORING following one set strat every game. I want risks and tactics to pay off!

The problem is this is a game. I don't disagree with the fact that penals don't seem to be true penal squads, and maybe they could be switched with conscripts in name or something, but I think T1 would benefit from some handheld AT.

even though this is a game, i would like it if they stick close to reality as possible. hence, it is why i bought this game. i wouldn't have bought this game if there were little girls cutting down tanks with giant swords. i'm ok with a few realistic things here and there, but not change a unit into something it's not.

maybe instead of giving t1 some AT maybe you could change the whole soviet teching system? the germans do not get t1 AT either. perhaps, make it more easier to get both t1 and t2 together.

or make a new model like soviet marines and place them as elite troops for t1 and give them bazookas.

In case you haven't been paying attention, Penals already outdps the living fk out of Cons.

and i never said that i was satisfied with how the penals are right now.

Ok, lets focus on that bit then.

I remember there used to be a lot of problems with this in combination with the old Opels, but I presume that is no longer the case, since they got so severly nerfed that only one is valid, after which Caches become better.

Panthers will fuck an Su85 they can get range on, even frontally. So though SU85s can still contribute, they arent a reliable solo counter unless range of LoS is carefully maintained. Tenuous. Plus there is the element of not being abke to redeploy them to Osts deliberate flanking/grouping that you mentioned earlier).

ZiS are still, unfortunately, despite the communities best effort and even recent patching, pretty shit.

What next?
How about if one of you techs for IS2?
How about if one (or both) of you keeps a pool of Guard to stall/blind the Panther pack?
(That would he more a mitigating, than a countering effect though...)

In most 2v2 games ive watched, successful Sov plays a far heavier t2-3.

So perhaps take the attitude that you completely forget T4 and go all out balls to the wall with T70s and T34s BEFORE they can push out the Panthers in sufficient numbers? Draw a line there, and invest everything you have into crushing their progression before it can build momentum.

Arguably Sov T4 is weaker anyways, so it begs the quesrion, why bother. Especially as Ost T4 is AT centric, whereas Sov T4 has a AI impetus. Which makes Ost t4 armor categorically more capable of countering yournown T4 options anyway. Especially when Panthers are the presented problem.

So how about that? Try and figure a build with your partner that exploits the fuck out of the narrow t2-3 window BEFORE they can start gradually accumalating their Panther horde of doom. Mix a little AT into the mix though, because even though younmay jot be able to destroy each Panther as they come out, even if they are overextended, the repair time and especially engine dmg makes them unable to coordinate with the Panther horde as a cohesive whole. So keep each individual one as dmged as you can, in turn.

Dunno man. I dunno shit as many claim. Just trying to help and find you a way to enjoy the game.

Yeah, thats all you try to do as Soviet anyway. Try to be as aggressive as possible, and try to crush Germans in early game and bleed as much VP as possible. Keep Panthers damaged and ineffective, you can win a game with Soviets. Its not like its impossible as long as you stop them from getting that critical mass. (Damn hard to do tho) Cause often Germans will do spectacular comeback even tho they had no map control entire game and lost every engagement (mostly because they are just stalling till armor and heavy call-ins)

Unfortunately I cannot see easy way for Relic to fix this without doing some major re-design of units. Thats not gonna happen, so just have to deal with it.....

P.S. I don't have much issue with Panthers in 2v2 (other than blitz engine damage, being 'free out of jail') it only becomes terrible issue in 4v4's

Really ? Thats what you understood ? I wonder why i write anything since half the people dont read it or dont understand what they just read .

When i say good communications and sound battle planning do you understand that i mean 4v4s are 4 x 1v1 ??? Why would tyhey need all that if its just multiple 1v1s ??!! When i say taking on each other i mean it as teams not individuals !!! and i am really restraining myself not to comment on your intelligence !!!!

Oh yeah and panthers and p4s somehow dont get at naded , hit by mines , ambushed by camoed atgs , buttoned and somehow all the axis 4v4 players intuitively know how to coordinate threir efforts and panthers come out 3 mins after the game has begun and there is no history behind . Oh yeah Panthers being spammable , really ??? Please give me the links on the games i really really want to see them !!!!!



Nullist I would like to know the reasons you object to what i proposed under the consideration of having more units like the guards with hand held at , Are svts too good or what , please this is just annoying , either write your reasons

Hmmm, I read what you wrote and I understood it. It cannot be said that you did the same

having a dig at my intelligence and not being capable of understanding? at least you could turn your brain on and think twice about what others have written.

4v4 isn't for separate 1v1 battles means: Soviets are well configured to work in 1v1 scenario (like you explained) but no amount of discussion and communication can help you if you cannot react with your Army. As I said "you can only look helplessly while your teamate is being 'gangbanged' because your army is designed to be effective fighting force only if you are set up in coherent formation. (with cons guarding flanks, mines and SU85 waiting for that armor to come to get in range)

You cannot go chasing Panthers across the entire map with Su85's or Soviet infantry, now can you? You know very well its not well designed for that.

here is a link for panther spam:
click:automatch vs players > select Soviet > select 4v4 > press SEARCH Enjoy

Yeah, thats all you try to do as Soviet anyway. Try to be as aggressive as possible, and try to crush Germans in early game and bleed as much VP as possible. Keep Panthers damaged and ineffective, you can win a game with Soviets. Its not like its impossible as long as you stop them from getting that critical mass. (Damn hard to do tho) Cause often Germans will do spectacular comeback even tho they had no map control entire game and lost every engagement (mostly because they are just stalling till armor and heavy call-ins)

This is pretty untrue. If anything, Germans have a marginally stronger early game due to LMGs and the generally shittiness of conscripts. Things then favor Soviets for a bit when 1CP hits, due to Guards and 120mm mortars.

Late game is quite equal in both 1v1 and 2v2s.

This is pretty untrue. If anything, Germans have a marginally stronger early game due to LMGs and the generally shittiness of conscripts. Things then favor Soviets for a bit when 1CP hits, due to Guards and 120mm mortars.

Late game is quite equal in both 1v1 and 2v2s.

was talking about late game 4v4's.....