Wehrmacht problems.

I'm giving u a chance to redeem yourself. Are u sure u stand behind this ignorance?

Ost needs an Ostwind to deal with blobs since by the midgame mgs are very threatened by almost all units. And the fact that even in the early game, they are entirely counterable. All the other factions can just make their own blob to counter a blob but gren blobs are the least efficient due to low squad sizes.

deal with blobs?

USE Pz4 and MG42


Why does ostwind have to deal with blobing?
It can be pz4 without ostwind
You do not understand why ostwind is not used


And the fact that even in the early game, they are entirely counterable

-> Mg42 is not super power squad

that is just skill problem not unit

if u cant keep mg42 and dislike 4-squad unit, just play other faction


and lmg42 grens blob is very powerful blobing in this game

At least a stupid and expensive BAR rifle blobing cant deal with lmg42 grens blobing

Yes, even if teh game is completely balanced, let me clarify, I think Ost is still harder to play, BUT only A BIT harder.

Fully agreed. It's details now. That's why one needs to be supercareful not to screw it up.

deal with blobs?

USE Pz4 and MG42


Why does ostwind have to deal with blobing?
It can be pz4 without ostwind
You do not understand why ostwind is not used


and lmg42 grens blob is very powerful blobing in this game

At least a stupid and expensive BAR rifle blobing cant deal with lmg42 grens blobing

Ost p4 has literally the same AI as a cromwell, with the pintle upgrade making it slightly better.

Bar rifles blobs easily beat lmg gren blobs. Just don't stop at max range. Get into midrange even if you take one or two casualties. You'll win at the end.

You're also salty that the Persh is not a Tiger. U called it a mEdIuM tAnK, lol.

Don't talk to me again, cuz you don't know anything and u don't have a playercard (for good reason probably)

Ost p4 has literally the same AI as a cromwell, with the pintle upgrade making it slightly better.

Bar rifles blobs easily beat lmg gren blobs. Just don't stop at max range. Get into midrange even if you take one or two casualties. You'll win at the end.

You're also salty that the Persh is not a Tiger. U called it a mEdIuM tAnK, lol.

Don't talk to me again, cuz you don't know anything and u don't have a playercard (for good reason probably)

I said, USE MG42

get into a mid range, grens are more strong because they have rifle grenade

Pershing have very low HP and can counterble easily by Panther



Don't talk to me again, cuz you don't know anything and u don't have a playercard
-> want 1vs1?

i will play weh and u play USF

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198008173898/ add me and go 1v1 with me, coward


dont know anything is u

how pity

I said, USE MG42

get into a mid range, grens are more strong because they have rifle grenade

Pershing have very low HP and can counterble easily by Panther



Don't talk to me again, cuz you don't know anything and u don't have a playercard
-> want 1vs1?

i will play weh and u play USF

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198008173898/ add me and go 1v1 with me, coward


dont know anything is u

how pity

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198008173898

Your playercard is largely unranked. Now I understand why u don't post it.

Ost p4 has literally the same AI as a cromwell, with the pintle upgrade making it slightly better.

Actually it's not literally the same. Their AOE distances are different, but you clearly ignore that stat since you don't understand it. Stop calling ppl ignorant...

P4 has larger kill radius than cromwell (1.13 vs. 0.88)

What a load of rubbish, axis vehicles are way more survivable than allied ones with all abilities considered. You dont really need to risk axis vehicles too much, your supposed to play carefully with them and grind your opponent down.

Load of rubbish? - I guess that's a bit impolite. In my opinion, ost vehicles used to have higher health poll. Now it's no longer true as there are churchills, is2s, isu152, and fast comets and pershings. Mediums are all almost the same as those of ost, however, there are great cromwells, easy eights, dozer shermans, t-34/85s that are slightly better. It means that despite more complicated tech ost is no longer ahead. Also, the range on many allied tanks is superior (su85/firefly/jackson). They are also faster. When you start trading blows with those tanks you face better allied infantry supporting them that has more AT solutions. They also have stock abilities that are more powerful: sherman has higher chance to hit while moving, they have crew repairs, crit repairs, stock smoke, grenades with vet, capping territory possibilities, smoke shots, stock AProunds, vision stock abilities on su85 etc. Genrally, if you play twice more carefully and make fewer mistakes you can win, but you just have to be better. So, it's not rubbish - it's facts. And being more careful than your opponent should give you advantage not make the game even.

Allies however need to
make early impact count with things like T70, so they need to risk them in order to press the advantage.

Not any more I'm afraid. It used to be like that. T70 is probably the best light vehice in the game, especially against 4 man ost squads.

Ost has way more issues while stuck in T1/2 than when they get T3/4 out. Best bet is learning how to use the infantry based AT to best effect. You dont HAVE to kill something like a T70, just soft counter it so its not winning the game for opponent, once your armour arives then things get much easier.

Pio has tellars
MG42 has AP ammo
Gren has faust
Sniper has incendiary round which can finish a LV in a pinch.

Just gotta learn to be confident and clever with those abilities.

Relyng on tellers just shows how difficult it is to combat light vehicles for ost. And halftrack with pzshreckpanzergrenadier used by many players shows it even better. It's just uneven and ost players use stopgap solutions. In the hands of a pro it can work but you just have to be better to pull it off.

MG42 AP round are good only against really bad players who dont pay attention. Otherwise, it's just waste of munitions. Better players use it more often agains infantry to compensate for low dps of mg42 than against vehicles.

Gren has faust - just like any basic inf unit in the allied rooster. The problem is that allied infatry has many more at solutions. Even major can be equipped with bazookas The worst thing is that they too often have both AI and AT capabilities and often 2 AT solutions like snare plus bazooka or ptrs and satchel on a single squad. Panzergrens sould get a snare to make it even - it would stop allied vehicles from making them dance and unable to shooot, for example.

I must try AP round by sniper. Still - Uk sniper is probably better here.

But general purpose just works and for ost 2 men is 50% dps and they just have to retreat. When it hits the vehicle pios will have to repair vety often under fire without the ability to crit repair. If you have satchel/at or other options nearby the vehicle is dead. If you hit a teller with t70 - mate you just overextended. Use sweepers with vehicles. Ost can't have the sweeper everywhere that's why those mines are better imo.

Yes and t70 dying is 100% dps lost, shock value lost if you hit it right after hitting the field. More recources lost more value lost. You loosing prgren models to a mine also means you overextended. Ost has sweepers too. Ost mines are better because they are specialized. Doing one job out of two but excelling at the one job.

All true - but the AT stachel short range doesn't matter with 'for the motherland' or when the vehicle is crippled. Once again I will stress that there are many more AT solutions allies have, which makes it a bit imbalanced. And again - to have both the snare and bazookas/ptrs plus still pretty decent AI capabilities is a problem for the gameplay. Rambo style units sort of.

Ost has faust, double shreck option, teller mines, pak40, stug3g, twp on 2 units non doc, the panther wich excels in at, that is not much less or even less then what allies have non doc. And every tank they have can get adtionel ai and aa by getting a pintle mounted mg, including the stug and panther.
The at satchel is really more situational then any other snares. That it requires doctrines to be on par shows this clearly.

I agree, but the whole point is that it happens too easily/frequently to ost units. A lot of people find it a problem. The game is quite balanced but ost has been neglected compared to other factions.

Ost being more suceptible to aoe is by design. As a balacing factor their tanks are tougher and esp compared to soviet their lethality is higher overall. Clumping cant be really fixed. Mostly if given a move order or moving into cover units will bunch up for a second.

I remember shreck blob very well and it was a real problem. Remember I'm writing about ost. OKW is a completely different story. Now, however, I face rifle/para/infsection/guards/penal/shocks blobs which just destroy almost everything in their way and ost has a problem with that. The risk of losing AT panzergenadier squad to armor is much much higher than losing allied AT squads.

If they can blob all those much more expensive squads vs you, then either they are sorely lacking in other areas or they outplayed you.
I made the volks shreck example to show what would be if pgrens got more resistant to damage.
Volks where 5 men, meaning less likely to be wiped, loosing less dps, less chance to loose or repurchase weapons.
Pgrenz have more dps, more shrecks when upgraded, a better nade.

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198008173898

Your playercard is largely unranked. Now I understand why u don't post it.

So lets play 1vs1 with me

Are u scared?

Prove yourself

Do not run away

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198008173898

Your playercard is largely unranked. Now I understand why u don't post it.

Looks lapsed to me.

Actually it's not literally the same. Their AOE distances are different, but you clearly ignore that stat since you don't understand it. Stop calling ppl ignorant...

P4 has larger kill radius than cromwell (1.13 vs. 0.88)

What did I just say? U focus on stuff people can't see. Let me pull some obscure advantages that the crom has over the ost p4. Did u know the cromwell has a higher XP threshold than the p4 when it comes to killing infantry models. For example the cromwell just needs an infantry model to be down to 30% HP to instantly kill it if it's inside the AoE radius whereas the p4 needs a lower % for that to happen. Does this matter in the grand scheme of things? NO! People compare units largely based on experience using them. Nobody knows every little statistic because THEY DON'T NEED TO.

We can do a survey whether people feel that the AI abilities of the Ost p4 without pintle is the same as crom. This is likely a better measurement of performance than the crap you spew.

Yes and t70 dying is 100% dps lost, shock value lost if you hit it right after hitting the field. More recources lost more value lost. You loosing prgren models to a mine also means you overextended. Ost has sweepers too. Ost mines are better because they are specialized. Doing one job out of two but excelling at the one job.

Mate. You place two mines on two separate parts of the map (60 munitions) Pio with sweeper can be only on one side - I cant invest in two sweeper squads, especially at the beginning of the match. Sweeper joins 222 which is super fragile. I send grens to the other side of the map and boom. If I have a sweeper with gren, 222 is hit and killed by with a fart by anything if the engine is damaged.

With teller I can afford probably only one (50 munitions) so it will be on one side of the map only. If you go there with infantry without sweeper you dont have a problem and just cap safely and outcap me. You accompany t70 with sappersweeper everywhere to repair and spot for mines. You'll spot the teller and attack ground it with t70. I lost 50 munitions and can't heal for example.

Trust me it's better to spam some lighter mines in more places than fewer bigger mines. Damaged engine means dead vehicle and you just don't need teller for that.

Ost has faust, double shreck option, teller mines, pak40, stug3g, twp on 2 units non doc, the panther wich excels in at, that is not much less or even less then what allies have non doc. And every tank they have can get adtionel ai and aa by getting a pintle mounted mg, including the stug and panther.
The at satchel is really more situational then any other snares. That it requires doctrines to be on par shows this clearly.

Ost has to play against 3 armies. Penals have satchels without commander abiities. US have stchel with commanders but they can equip bazookas for every inf squad. Again - more AT solutions than ost.

Ost being more suceptible to aoe is by design. As a balacing factor their tanks are tougher and esp compared to soviet their lethality is higher overall. Clumping cant be really fixed. Mostly if given a move order or moving into cover units will bunch up for a second.

These are very basic facts that we know. Still they die too quckly compared to allied if and that is a problem. One lucky shot and the whole expensive squad is gone. Its very difficult to do the same to allies squads even with very expensive units that require tech such as brumbar.

If they can blob all those much more expensive squads vs you, then either they are sorely lacking in other areas or they outplayed you.
I made the volks shreck example to show what would be if pgrens got more resistant to damage.
Volks where 5 men, meaning less likely to be wiped, loosing less dps, less chance to loose or repurchase weapons.
Pgrenz have more dps, more shrecks when upgraded, a better nade.

Mate again. Have you used shocks?? Don't you see the problem with inst wipe potential of this unit?? The problem is that it's much easier to kill pak,mg42,pios with this unit than use all combined arms and have very limited results.

What did I just say? U focus on stuff people can't see. Let me pull some obscure advantages that the crom has over the ost p4.

Better than focusing on other people's playercards... Kill radius is not an obscure advantage. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean its obscure. Saying that their AI is literally the same is a lie. Its factually untrue.

I focus on the whole picture, rather than cherrypicking stats to argue for my favorite faction like you. And saying you "can't see" the stats is just laziness, they are plain as day available here: https://coh2db.com/stats/
They aren't perfectly up to date, but they are mostly and if you cross-reference with relics patchnotes you have everything you need

We can do a survey whether people feel that the AI abilities of the Ost p4 without pintle is the same as crom. This is likely a better measurement of performance than the crap you spew.

Better than stats you mean? So your argument is that peoples feelings are better than stats? I have little more to say to you if your crossing into that part of crazytown

What did I just say? U focus on stuff people can't see. Let me pull some obscure advantages that the crom has over the ost p4. Did u know the cromwell has a higher XP threshold than the p4 when it comes to killing infantry models. For example the cromwell just needs an infantry model to be down to 30% HP to instantly kill it if it's inside the AoE radius whereas the p4 needs a lower % for that to happen. Does this matter in the grand scheme of things? NO! People compare units largely based on experience using them. Nobody knows every little statistic because THEY DON'T NEED TO.

We can do a survey whether people feel that the AI abilities of the Ost p4 without pintle is the same as crom. This is likely a better measurement of performance than the crap you spew.

You don't need to know all the stats to play the game. You do need numbers to discuss balance.

There are two things that matter when working out how good a tank's main gun is against infantry. Scatter, which sets how accurate the shells are, and AoE Profile, which is how that damage is distributed.

The Cromwell and Panzer IV have the same scatter, so AoE Profile is what matters.



The Kill Radius is the point where the AoE Profile line crosses 80 damage. Anything above this line is meaningless as infantry models only have 80 HP.

The Cromwell's is 0.88 m, the Panzer IV's is 1.13 m. That makes the Panzer IV better at killing full health models.

The Cromwell's AoE profile is flatter, which means it deals damage more consistently across the whole radius. Lower risk, lower reward.

In terms of general usefulness, I'd say they're pretty similar. It wouldn't change much if you swapped them over.

I think one of the issues here is that people have different opinions based on their rank and the modes they play. The lower the player count in the mode, the more obvious the Wehrmacht's issues become.

In my opinion it's not that people want to go for the Pz4, it's just that there's no alternative. The Ostwind at present is a total meme, which is why nobody will go Stugs/Ostwinds.

I should also point out that the Pz4 must have better AI capability because Axis players have to deal with larger squads, whereas Allies only face (with the exception of Volks and the odd Füssiliers) 4 man squads.

Better than focusing on other people's playercards... Kill radius is not an obscure advantage. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean its obscure. Saying that their AI is literally the same is a lie. Its factually untrue.

I focus on the whole picture, rather than cherrypicking stats to argue for my favorite faction like you. And saying you "can't see" the stats is just laziness, they are plain as day available here: https://coh2db.com/stats/
They aren't perfectly up to date, but they are mostly and if you cross-reference with relics patchnotes you have everything you need



Or you could just stop being so biased, and start looking at the whole picture. Play all sides equally. Just try it....

P4 has higher AoE radius BUT CROM is more lethal within it's AoE radius. You're trying to say P4 AI > crom AI ONLY based on higher AoE radius which is a very shallow way to determine AI performance. One stat alone doesn't determine performance, that's the whole point why I said Crom has higher HP threshold. Everytime I talk to u it seems u don't understand a damn thing about what I'm trying to say, so I'm done talking to u.

P4 has higher AoE radius BUT CROM is more lethal within it's AoE radius. You're trying to say P4 AI > crom AI ONLY based on higher AoE radius which is a very shallow way to determine AI performance.

Nope thats not what im saying. You said they were literally the same. Thats not true. I am merely pointing out that if you're gonna keep calling people stupid, you should understand ALL of the mechanics yourself.

Again like the ostwind example. Im not making a statement about the unit. Im telling you to stop being such an asshole, and stop being so biased.

The p4 reloads faster. It has more armor. It can get the pintle (like you said). I'm still not gonna say its wildly better than the cromwell, but saying they are exactly the same is untrue in a variety of different ways

Nope thats not what im saying. You said they were literally the same. Thats not true. I am merely pointing out that if you're gonna keep calling people stupid, you should understand ALL of the mechanics yourself.

Again like the ostwind example. Im not making a statement about the unit. Im telling you to stop being such an asshole, and stop being so biased.

If I'm not an asshole and not supporting Ost, nobody is. U certainly aren't. I see that axis players are consistently outnumbered on this forum.

I said, you're suggesting P4 AI > Crom AI which is NOT true. You tried to prove P4 AI > Crom AI with ONE statistic. I'm done talking to u. Bye.

P4 has higher AoE radius BUT CROM is more lethal within it's AoE radius. You're trying to say P4 AI > crom AI ONLY based on higher AoE radius which is a very shallow way to determine AI performance.

P4 AI > Cromwell AI because the Panzer IV gets a pintle mount. The hull and coaxial MGs are also slightly better than the Cromwell's.

Conversely, the Cromwell is better against tanks than the Panzer IV because the Tank Commander makes it a better shot.

You don't need to know all the stats to play the game. You do need numbers to discuss balance.

There are two things that matter when working out how good a tank's main gun is against infantry. Scatter, which sets how accurate the shells are, and AoE Profile, which is how that damage is distributed.

The Cromwell and Panzer IV have the same scatter, so AoE Profile is what matters.



The Kill Radius is the point where the AoE Profile line crosses 80 damage. Anything above this line is meaningless as infantry models only have 80 HP.

The Cromwell's is 0.88 m, the Panzer IV's is 1.13 m. That makes the Panzer IV better at killing full health models.

The Cromwell's AoE profile is flatter, which means it deals damage more consistently across the whole radius. Lower risk, lower reward.

In terms of general usefulness, I'd say they're pretty similar. It wouldn't change much if you swapped them over.

This is EXACTLY what SkystheLimit needs to hear:


The Cromwell's AoE profile is flatter, which means it deals damage more consistently across the whole radius. Lower risk, lower reward. In terms of general usefulness, I'd say they're pretty similar. It wouldn't change much if you swapped them over.


Thank u Lago.