The new Penals

Consider the following:

Penal builds trade combined arms for raw early game power. They don't have mortars to push you out of fortified positions, neither mgs to control blobs. Axis factions will always have the tools to combined arms. That's one thing you can use.

Light vehicle play give penal build trouble because how subpar ptrs penals are compared to actual AT units. You can actually chase damaged units into the base with 222s, luchs or flametracks. It forces soviets it into guard doctrines, which turns manpower into an issue if you are able to inflict cassualties.

A) How does 160 Manpower and 20 Fuel lock you out of t2.

B) How is being forced into a guard doctrine a downside? Are any Guard Doctrines lacking in any particular aspect?

The tech its quite cheap, the problem will be to muster the manpower to bring out the 360mp ATG. Normaly you will have 3 penals and maybe a guard unit by the time you need to tech up. That's taxing on manpower by both the bleed and the pop cost of the units.

Backteching also has an oportuninty cost: you won't be able to spend your fuel into light vehicles like the T70, which its one of the best vehicles in the soviet arsenal, or the Su76 which offers a lot more value than the Zis3 (has the same barrage ability, plus mobility and rate of fire) and vets SUPER FAST (erasing the damage gap between it and zis).

After T3, backteching into T2 its a lot more viable, specialy if you have a heavy on your doctrine, because your units now have vet that softens the bleed allowing you to float a bit of manpower as new units are tied to fuel costs. Support weapons, however, will have to deal with vetted units which means even less supression value (comparatively to a T2 start or a T1 into T2 BO) on your maxims and your mortars and atg, without vet, will be hampered by their low rate of fire.

Regarding guards and their doctrines, they don't have any problem per se, its just their combination of numerous high upkeep infantry squads with 28mp per model its taxing on your manpower. And its ok to be that way.

A) How does 160 Manpower and 20 Fuel lock you out of t2.

B) How is being forced into a guard doctrine a downside? Are any Guard Doctrines lacking in any particular aspect?

If 160 Manpower and 20 Fuel being a handicap, the whole OKW is full of handicap.

Volks cost 10mp more then cons and roflstomp cons, all fine and balanced.
Penals cost 50-60 more mp then axis inf and don't have any AI upgrade, suddenly imba.

You had a long break, L2P applies again.

I did, but I suggest what I would say two years ago, how about playing the actual game instead of keep crusading your forum "Soviet is fine" Holy Grail?

Anyway, who unban this guy?

Soviet Penals are fine.

I want to know how many penal threads exist in this forum

I want to know how many penal threads exist in this forum

There's probably more Penal posts than Threads opened in the stage office.

If 160 Manpower and 20 Fuel being a handicap, the whole OKW is full of handicap.

They removed resource handicap for OKW quite a while ago.

Things you might had missed:

-Stealth changes. You can no longer shoot and immediately cloak.
-AT infantry units no longer gain insane amount of vet.
-Mortars are no longer place and forget units.
-Spacing of infantry squads reduced quite a lot wiping potential of full health units.
-Most cheese tools had been dealt with the nerfhammer.
-Plenty of units received basically QOL buffs.

You should basically go here:
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p5
And start reading from: MARCH 28th UPDATE

if penals are nerfed ther has to be a buff for cons, or soviets will just collapse. But generally u go for penals to have the edge in early, late game they will start struggling vs other main line inf

You think penals are strong? You are going to pull your hair off when you meet a player that is good using cons spam, they are even better than penals right now since you won't gamble everything into the first 5 minutes of the game.

if penals are nerfed ther has to be a buff for cons, or soviets will just collapse. But generally u go for penals to have the edge in early, late game they will start struggling vs other main line inf

Penals won't be nerfed, they already got plenty of nerfs, collective REEEEE that still lasts is from people who think its a good idea to use cheap generalist infantry against expensive AI specialists instead of combined arms in form of snipers/hmgs/lvs.

You think penals are strong? You are going to pull your hair off when you meet a player that is good using cons spam, they are even better than penals right now since you won't gamble everything into the first 5 minutes of the game.

You don't say?

I fail to see how 6 year old replay cast has anything to do with... well... anything now. Its literally different game now.

You don't say?

Tell me you haven´t just posted a replay from 2013 to prove something about 2019 balance? Please tell me you didn´t do that.

I failed to see Cons and Grens changed anything neither.
Suddenly Penals was buffed like having a free G43 pre-equip, sticky airborne bombs.

Let me help: here are all the changes to Penals since 2013

JULY 20TH 2013

Rapid Conscription
• Maximum replaced squads from 6 to 2
• Duration from 30s to 120s
• Recharge time from 90s to 180s
• Cost from 200 MU to 160 MU
• Ability now replaces lost squads with Conscripts rather than Penal Battalions
• Updated tooltip to better reflect ability functionality

SEPTEMBER 10TH 2013

Penal Battalion Flamethrower
• Fire aim time max from 1 to 0.5
• Fire aim time min from 1 to 0.125
• Post firing aim time from 1.5 to 0.5
• Ready aim time max from 1.5 to 0.125
• Ready aim time min from 1.5 to 0.125
• Suppressed reload multiplier from 1 to 2
• Horizontal tracking speed from 90 to 45

Penal Troops Rifle:
• Damage from 14.9 to 16
• Near Accuracy from 50 to 47%
• Far Accuracy from 28 to 26%

Torched (Penal Battalion) from 3% health and 2% damage to 3% accuracy

NOVEMBER 12TH 2013

Penal Battalion
Veterancy 2

Gains Oorah
-20% Cooldown
+30% Accuracy

Veterancy 3

+30% Accuracy
+30% Armor

MARCH 6TH 2014

Penal Battalion

Cost from 360 MP to 270 MP
Population from 9 to 7

MARCH 28TH 2014

Penal

Corrected weapon profile to properly scale with unit cost
Corrected weapon profile to properly scale with unit cost; this resulted in a slight increase in damage output

JUNE 21ST 2016

Penal Battalion

Developer Comments: Due to the lack of anti-tank in the Special Rifle Command, we are giving Penal Battalions a more focused roll as a dedicated anti-infantry unit.

SVT accuracy to .7/.65/.45
SVT damage from 8 to 10.
Cooldowns and aim-times adjusted.
Squad cost increased to 300 manpower from 270 manpower.
Reinforce time from 4.5 to 5.4. Build time from 27 to 32 seconds.
"Tripwire Flare" changed to "To The Last Man!" This ability is a passive that increases the power of the squad as they lose members. Modifiers are +4% accuracy, -2% weapon cooldown and -3% received accuracy per member lost.

MARCH 28TH 2017
Penals

The combination of the raw amount of bonuses Penal Battalion squads receive with the power of their flamer upgrade made the squad capable of winning nearly all engagements vs infantry, in almost any situation, creating very limited avenues for counterplay. To address this, we are removing some of the raw power of Penal battalions. At the same time, we are giving Penal Battalions access to some anti-tank utility to give Soviet T1 some tactical versatility, which it previously lacked.

Popcap cost increased from 7 to 8
Penal Veterancy 3 received accuracy from 0.77 to 0.85
Veterancy 3 reduces cost of satchel charges from 45 munitions to 35 munitions.
No longer gains access to the Oorah ability.
No longer have access to the flamethrower upgrade
Now gain access to a (2x) PTRS upgrade

PTRS x2 upgrade
* Cost 60 Munitions
* Same damage as Guards PTRS (refer to Guards changes)
* Accuracy lowered from 0.69/0.575/0.253 to 0.15/0.105/0.06
* Has 0.33 drop-rate

Satchel charges
Penal satchel charges can now also behave as vehicle snares:

Damage vs vehicles reduced to 240 (same as AT satchel)
Friendly fire multiplier increased from 25% to 50%
Causes engine snare on targets with 75% HP or lower (after the damage is applied)
Satchel will stick to vehicles if it hits them on its trajectory to the target
Satchels can be targeted directly on enemy vehicles. However, the throw will abort if, at any time, the target leaves the range of the ability (unlike other snare abilities that will fire regardless)

APRIL 25TH 2017

Penal Battalions - Satchel Ability

To prevent unintended behavior, as well as to assist with targeting the ability, we are splitting the functionality of the Penal Satchel ability into two separate abilities. Note that both abilities launch precisely the same projectile with respect to damage and critical effects. The two abilities only behave differently with respect to targeting.

(Manual version)
* This ability targets a location on the ground.
* If the satchel collides with a vehicle, the satchel will stick to the vehicle

(Targeted version)
* This ability can only be targeted on enemy vehicles
* If the vehicle remains within range while the ability is casting, the satchel will home-in on the enemy vehicle

DECEMBER 19 2017

Penal Battalions
Penal Battalions are losing their Anti-tank "sticky" satchel on squads not upgraded with the PTRS package to increase the number of counters that can be fielded and to create a stronger trade-off between anti-infantry and anti-tank. The unit will also now take longer to reach its full potential through veterancy to match their combat performance.

Reinforce cost from 25 to 27
Moving cooldown from 0.5 to 0.75
Veterancy requirements from 540/1080/2160 to 640/1280/2560
Anti-Vehicle Satchel now requires PTRS upgrade
Anti-Vehicle Satchel will always throw once the animation begins
Anti-vehicle Satchel damage against friendly infantry reduced

Just played 3 Sovjet game, Penals + Guards = old Obers/Airborne LMG blob.
No wonder everyone spam them.

>> The combination of the raw amount of bonuses Penal Battalion squads receive with the power of their flamer upgrade made the squad capable of winning nearly all engagements vs infantry

What? It happens in their first engagement at first two minutes mark.

Just played 3 Sovjet game, Penals + Guards = old Obers/Airborne LMG blob.
No wonder everyone spam them.

>> The combination of the raw amount of bonuses Penal Battalion squads receive with the power of their flamer upgrade made the squad capable of winning nearly all engagements vs infantry

What? It happens in their first engagement at first two minutes mark.

Try to use cons and maxims, either con spam, maxim spam or mixed.
That should help you find out and understand why penals are being used now.
There is literally no need for any kind of argument, just go and see for yourself.

Try to use cons and maxims, either con spam, maxim spam or mixed.
That should help you find out and understand why penals are being used now.
There is literally no need for any kind of argument, just go and see for yourself.

Just because a unit overpowered enough to give you easy on every early engagement doesn't mean the other options are not viable.

Just because a unit overpowered enough to give you easy on every early engagement doesn't mean the other options are not viable.

So go, turn the game on, TRY the other options and report back your findings.
Make sure you do it in 1v1 or 2v2, not noobs vs noobs modes.
I didn't made an argument for them, because it doesn't need any arguments, the shittiness of these units speak for themselves.

Or maybe you want to post another vid from 6 years, 3 factions and 30 changes ago?

So go, turn the game on, TRY the other options and report back your findings.
Make sure you do it in 1v1 or 2v2, not noobs vs noobs modes.
I didn't made an argument for them, because it doesn't need any arguments, the shittiness of these units speak for themselves.

Or maybe you want to post another vid from 6 years, 3 factions and 30 changes ago?

I played 6 Sovjet games in a row whole night already.
Sorry, I don't do noobs game.