What is OKW's weakness?

Background
Hello all, I have struggled playing against OKW for quite some time now, especially when I play as USF. I thought it was about time to ask for help. I feel like I have lost countless games to them because of similar early game plays that just snowball into huge advantages later on. I just don't understand OKW and how to go about countering them. I gave playing OKW a try to understand them better, but it really didn't help that much. They just seem like a faction that is very good early game AND late game. It further confuses me when I read Relic's infographic covering factions because it talks about how they are supposed to be a very aggressive, early game faction, yet they can get essentially everything the Wehr (a late game faction) can in the vehicle department. They can even get a tiger regardless of the commander they pick!

My Experience
A typical game against OKW in 1v1 as USF goes like this:
I cap towards my fuel using engineer, get a rifle to cap points alongside my engineers, get another rifle to support them in case of a sturmpioneer attack, then get a third rifle into an ambulance before teching.

Problem is, when I get my third rifleman squad out, my opponent is already preparing to send a few volks with the sturmpioneer straight to my cut off. I attempt to consolidate all my units to try and stop it while using cover, then I lose and retreat my rifles one at a time as they are getting torn apart. (this part goes many ways depending on the map) they take my cut off and camp it, building sandbags quickly. This is followed by volks in green cover blocking me into my base and essentially forcing me onto the other side of the map. They have usually built a kubel by then and capped their side of the map too. Once they realize I'm going to the other side, they just combine their units and blob to the other side to stop me when my guys are spread out trying to cap to the fuel.

Fast forward a bit, I'm getting bullied nearly the entire game losing cutoffs for fuel, trying to make use of light vehicles and different tools at my disposal with little success, especially if my opponent goes with luchs (combined with an AT gun, it almost makes teching for light vehicles feel pointless). I am so behind on fuel at this point. Even if I did have fuel, USF mid and late game armor is so weak compared to Wehr vehicles (which, again, OKW has too), which is to be expected by design.

My Question(s)
So at what point is USF supposed to be at an advantage during the game against OKW? I am not calling for a buff/nerf or saying anything is op, I am just trying to understand the design of the faction better and be a better player. I am looking for both general (about OKW's design) and specific (using USF to counter OKW in 1v1 games) advice. I have read posts about how USF can steamroll OKW by blobbing with bars, but do I really have to blob to win against OKW? I don't enjoy blobbing, but is that really supposed to be the solution?

Background
My Question(s)
So at what point is USF supposed to be at an advantage during the game against OKW? I am not calling for a buff/nerf or saying anything is op, I am just trying to understand the design of the faction better and be a better player. I am looking for both general (about OKW's design) and specific (using USF to counter OKW in 1v1 games) advice. I have read posts about how USF can steamroll OKW by blobbing with bars, but do I really have to blob to win against OKW? I don't enjoy blobbing, but is that really supposed to be the solution?

I'd say mid game is where USF really shines. Vetted riflemen have some of the best recieved accuracy buffs and have easy acess to double lmgs that can fire on the move. This makes them extremely mobile and good for flanking. Futhermore USF will usually field their medium tanks quite a bit earlier than the OKW counterpart if they have managed a somewhat even map control. The USF decrew ability also makes repairing much faster and means that their tanks are quicker at getting back in the action.

Perhaps try to rush a lieutenant so you can get a fast 50 cal to manage any infantry rushes for your cut-off. Other than that you might want to go for a doctrine which will let you place mines and possibly also sandbags, so you can entrench your own side of the map and make deep moves more costly for your opponent. Finally you could also try to pick a doctrine with pathfinders, equip them with double bars, and use them behind your main infantry to snipe the enemy models.

These are just a few suggestions when we are going in blind without a replay to relate to, but if you want more detailed feedback upload a replay, or let me know and I'll send you one of my replays on how I play as USF vs. OKW (I'm generally 150-200 when work and family dosen't take all my time and my ranks are killed by ladder decay).

Indirect fire and MGs

Other allies also have snipers and heavier tanks (Churchil, ISU, KV1)

As USF I find that trying to prioritize capping munitions and BARs helps a ton - if you can win the BAR vs. STG upgrade race then you'll usually find yourself being able to dictate favorable engagements. The tech revamp helps a ton in this aspect since you no longer have to have safety zooks if LT since it's so much easier to get AT guns.

Background
Hello all, I have struggled playing against OKW for quite some time now, especially when I play as USF. I thought it was about time to ask for help. I feel like I have lost countless games to them because of similar early game plays that just snowball into huge advantages later on. I just don't understand OKW and how to go about countering them. I gave playing OKW a try to understand them better, but it really didn't help that much. They just seem like a faction that is very good early game AND late game. It further confuses me when I read Relic's infographic covering factions because it talks about how they are supposed to be a very aggressive, early game faction, yet they can get essentially everything the Wehr (a late game faction) can in the vehicle department. They can even get a tiger regardless of the commander they pick!

My Experience
A typical game against OKW in 1v1 as USF goes like this:
I cap towards my fuel using engineer, get a rifle to cap points alongside my engineers, get another rifle to support them in case of a sturmpioneer attack, then get a third rifle into an ambulance before teching.

Problem is, when I get my third rifleman squad out, my opponent is already preparing to send a few volks with the sturmpioneer straight to my cut off. I attempt to consolidate all my units to try and stop it while using cover, then I lose and retreat my rifles one at a time as they are getting torn apart. (this part goes many ways depending on the map) they take my cut off and camp it, building sandbags quickly. This is followed by volks in green cover blocking me into my base and essentially forcing me onto the other side of the map. They have usually built a kubel by then and capped their side of the map too. Once they realize I'm going to the other side, they just combine their units and blob to the other side to stop me when my guys are spread out trying to cap to the fuel.

Fast forward a bit, I'm getting bullied nearly the entire game losing cutoffs for fuel, trying to make use of light vehicles and different tools at my disposal with little success, especially if my opponent goes with luchs (combined with an AT gun, it almost makes teching for light vehicles feel pointless). I am so behind on fuel at this point. Even if I did have fuel, USF mid and late game armor is so weak compared to Wehr vehicles (which, again, OKW has too), which is to be expected by design.

My Question(s)
So at what point is USF supposed to be at an advantage during the game against OKW? I am not calling for a buff/nerf or saying anything is op, I am just trying to understand the design of the faction better and be a better player. I am looking for both general (about OKW's design) and specific (using USF to counter OKW in 1v1 games) advice. I have read posts about how USF can steamroll OKW by blobbing with bars, but do I really have to blob to win against OKW? I don't enjoy blobbing, but is that really supposed to be the solution?

Have you heard about our lord and saviour Heavy Cavalry?

To answer your question: Mid-game and late-game are when USF is supposed to win the game. USF is no longer hyper-vulnerable to light vehicle rushes, since the LT tier gives you the Stuart and getting the Captain for the AT gun is now very cheap. USF vs OKW is all about surviving the early OKW aggression and preventing a LV snowball. The way you're struggling though, you sound like you'd have the same problem with holding off a Grens push with an MG42 behind it, into Flame HT for the game-ender. The situation you describe was pretty prevalent last patch, but it's been mitigated heavily by the addition of commanders that break early OKW dominance - mechanised and armour, as well as by the reduction of tech costs to get the officers and support weapons out. As Joshua mentioned, the mid-late game of USF infantry supremacy before Obers get to Vet 2 is where you should try to get wipes and inflict serious bleed on your opponent.

Rushing for a Sherman is a lot more feasible now because of tech revamp, or you can call-in a Sherman Dozer with the Armour Company, which while obviously not as powerful as a Brummbar, comes much earlier and is much cheaper, and enjoys a very comfortable window of dominance before Panthers hit the field. Pershing and Jackson are more than a match for Panther and P4, while the new 76mm Sherman is extremely cost-effective and has a superb HVAP ability which lets it easily trounce OKW P4s in 1v1 matchups despite costing less, so I'm not sure why you're struggling in the late game armour department.

In short, you need to work on holding off early aggression (improve your early game) and learning to use your vehicles better (late game).

Wanted to quickly make a post thanking you guys for the quick and helpful replies! I have been trying these things out and am immediately getting better results.

To answer your question: Mid-game and late-game are when USF is supposed to win the game. USF is no longer hyper-vulnerable to light vehicle rushes, since the LT tier gives you the Stuart and getting the Captain for the AT gun is now very cheap. USF vs OKW is all about surviving the early OKW aggression and preventing a LV snowball. The way you're struggling though, you sound like you'd have the same problem with holding off a Grens push with an MG42 behind it, into Flame HT for the game-ender. The situation you describe was pretty prevalent last patch, but it's been mitigated heavily by the addition of commanders that break early OKW dominance - mechanised and armour, as well as by the reduction of tech costs to get the officers and support weapons out. As Joshua mentioned, the mid-late game of USF infantry supremacy before Obers get to Vet 2 is where you should try to get wipes and inflict serious bleed on your opponent.

Perhaps try to rush a lieutenant so you can get a fast 50 cal to manage any infantry rushes for your cut-off. Other than that you might want to go for a doctrine which will let you place mines and possibly also sandbags, so you can entrench your own side of the map and make deep moves more costly for your opponent. Finally you could also try to pick a doctrine with pathfinders, equip them with double bars, and use them behind your main infantry to snipe the enemy models.

I had a question that relates to these parts of your posts:
I'm not sure how to adapt to the new tech changes to USF. Are people typically getting both Lt and Cpt before getting a Mjr, or are they going Lt, Mjr, then backteching to Cpt? Before the tech changes I chose one or the other due to the cost. Is it now cheap enough to get both without being too far behind? Lastly, is stuart or AA halftrack better against OKW in your opinion?

As USF I find that trying to prioritize capping munitions and BARs helps a ton - if you can win the BAR vs. STG upgrade race then you'll usually find yourself being able to dictate favorable engagements. The tech revamp helps a ton in this aspect since you no longer have to have safety zooks if LT since it's so much easier to get AT guns.

I played a game today where the my opponent did exactly what I mentioned above in my original post (in fact, they MEGA blobbed the entire game and started with my cutoff early). I actually went with the m1919 (and made the mistake of getting the weapon rack without realizing, what a waste!) and it appeared to help. I think BARs would have been better, but I'm not sure. Thanks!

I really like elite infantry with usf, whether it's rangers or paras. There's a lot of good support for them in the way of smokes and it helps you be a lot more effective at playing aggressively when you have a squad of terminators backing up your riflemen. It's also a lot more viable since you aren't forced to have like 5 infantry squads and nothing else after the tech revamp.

I had a question that relates to these parts of your posts:
I'm not sure how to adapt to the new tech changes to USF. Are people typically getting both Lt and Cpt before getting a Mjr, or are they going Lt, Mjr, then backteching to Cpt? Before the tech changes I chose one or the other due to the cost. Is it now cheap enough to get both without being too far behind? Lastly, is stuart or AA halftrack better against OKW in your opinion?

Hi Zackman, for me I used to love LT with AAHT a lot, but in the old patch I simply couldn't handle Luchs bleed so I had to go Captain (which meant I wouldn't have much of an infantry advantage).

The new patch has changed that quite a bit, against OKW I find LT with 50 cals to deal with volks blobs, and Stuart to hard-counter Luchs the perfect choice. If he won too much of the early game though, Captain with early AT gun for the Luchs, into a slightly slower AAHT would be a better choice. Then I'd try to snowball into an early Sherman to aggressively take territory/wipe squads. When his P4 comes out I'll play more defensively and stall for Jackson.

I think rushing for Major makes more sense if you're around even or ahead with the early game into LT snowball play, while if you're falling behind, Cpt defensive play makes more sense. Your doctrine choice also makes a HUGE difference. If you're going for Mechanised, Major Rush for the 76mm Sherman would be good. If you're going something with only stock Shermans (which are great vs infantry but not so vs armour), you have to assess the fuel and resource control situation. The beauty of the rts genre is in reading and adapting to situations as they unfold

On some maps (and against opponents who create lots of engagements), I go for the old Heavy Cav route. LT + Cpt into Pershing, then slowly backtech for Jackson and Scott.

Hope this helps!

I had a question that relates to these parts of your posts:
I'm not sure how to adapt to the new tech changes to USF. Are people typically getting both Lt and Cpt before getting a Mjr, or are they going Lt, Mjr, then backteching to Cpt? Before the tech changes I chose one or the other due to the cost. Is it now cheap enough to get both without being too far behind? Lastly, is stuart or AA halftrack better against OKW in your opinion?

As you can probably make from the different comments you are getting the revamped USF gives so many viable openings compared to before, so it's ultimately down to what works for you.

As it is for me right now I often skip light vehicles and unlock both lt. and capt. for the team weapons only. If it comes down to getting light vehicles vs OKW I prefer the luchs over the AA HT, because it is much less vulnerable to getting killed by a raketen.

However, just yesterday I found that the new WC51 in the mechanized company seems EXTREMELY strong against OKW to a point where I think it will most likely be nerfed soon.

for 200 mp and 3 pop cap (cheaper than a kubel) you get:
1. A vehicle capable of capping..
2. With a powerful 50 cal upgrade for 45 munis..
3. That can have a squad protected and firing from the flat top..
4. which on top of that can easily survive a hit from a raketen..
5. and also has a vet 1 ability speed boost that makes it harder to hit and faster than its natual enemies
6. And as a side note is also able to call in an atillery barrage and mark enemy vehicles so they are seen through the fow and easier to penetrate.

If you manage to utilize even half of this you can easily harass an OKW opponent and most likely hold both fuel points (remember OKW don't have faust for the first 4-6 mins so don't be afraid to go balls deep into their lines with a riflemen squad in the top). In the two 1v1 matches I played yesterday with USF, my WC51 survived throughout the entire game and got ~20 kills to their name. And this is in a case where I didn't even remember to use its abilities.

I feel that right now it is almost impossible to overstate how insanely strong this is against OKW.

Background
What is OKW's weakness?

#1 play OKW yourself

#2 get countered and lose

#3 analyse your lose replay

#1 play OKW yourself

#2 get countered and lose

#3 analyse your lose replay

Yes that is obviously the best option, but I don't think there is any shame is asking in here.

Coh2 is already a daunting task on unit knowledge and diverse units and abilities, so it's understandable that new players want to focus on one faction at the time

While you are fighting for your cutoff, send a lone squad to cap other points around the map and harrass his fuel. In case that the enemy OKW doesn't go for your cutoff, you can go into his own cutoff and harrass it. It works very well.

#1 play OKW yourself

#2 get countered and lose

#3 analyse your lose replay

I have played as OKW, but maybe I haven't played it enough in 1v1 to understand the faction thoroughly.

Thank you for the advice.

From a OKW's view, I do not have a good way to counter standard Sherman.

• If I bought a Pz4: Pz4 has no advantage against Sherman with AP round. Besides, M1 57mm is a really good AT gun. So Pz4 has no chance to take down Sherman.
  
• If I bought a Panther: Panther could not threaten RM with bars. And Panther is expensive, USF could buy a M36 to counter it.
  
• If I bought a Jadgerpanzer: This is suicide.
  

From a OKW's view, I do not have a good way to counter standard Sherman.

• If I bought a Pz4: Pz4 has no advantage against Sherman with AP round. Besides, M1 57mm is a really good AT gun. So Pz4 has no chance to take down Sherman.
  
• If I bought a Panther: Panther could not threaten RM with bars. And Panther is expensive, USF could buy a M36 to counter it.
  
• If I bought a Jadgerpanzer: This is suicide.
  

OKW p4 has no advantage against sherman? What about its higher armor, higher penetration or its higher speed with combat blitz? Its high armor also bounces shots like crazy both from sherman and m1 57mm, even with sabot rounds.

OKW p4 has no advantage against sherman? What about its higher armor, higher penetration or its higher speed with combat blitz? Its high armor also bounces shots like crazy both from sherman and m1 57mm, even with sabot rounds.

For reference:


Panzer 4 did has advantage at distance, but it cost more. In close range, that's bascialy 50-50 game.

Or you know, you could get 2 raketens and sneak them close to the Sherman, then two shot it.

They have no weakness but you.