OKW Fortifications Docrtine

First of all I ask you to take a moment and read this:
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I think Fortifications doctrine on OKW does not fit their theme. OKM seems to be aggresive and good at spec ops and breakthroughs. The elite of german forces yet not the most conventional. okw
I know many OKW will not like to hear this, but fortifications its kind of OP in some aspects. Battlegroup Headquarters and LeFH18 synegise too well and becomes really annoying. In many 4v4 games that guy who plays fortifications just sit there and just waits to win, in 1v1 is a risky choice but its an option. IMO that fact breaks both, the faction design and balance since any buff to tanks/troops will make things easier to defend that setup. Maybe someone will argue that fortifications doctrine "its mostly to counter" other arty heavy commanders. If that is the case I consider there are better options with more fidelity to the faction aggresive design.

Other strange thing with fortifications is the field defense ability, I know, its useful as it is. But its a copy/paste of OST bunkers and mines, Its like making OKW half like OST. Again it breaks the faction design, the balance (since bunkers are great to hold ground for 0 Pcap). Need a reinforce point? you already got one. Need a blob control?, Mg34.



Maybe changing the aspect of "fortification" to an "ambush" or a "coordinated assault" design might be the first step. For example:
LeIG new abilities, ie LeIG now can camoflage to make them elusive as raketen.
A new mine type could be coded into the game, ie "Glasmine 43" this mines cant be detected with minesweepers, they are small so only affect infantry, additionaly they could cause some dot (as a bleeding effect) on the soldiers affected.
Maybe give sturmpios the ability to cloak on cover with an camoflage upgrade, an "ambush package" upgrade.
Or else take some other commander abilities like "For the Fatherland", "Signal Relay" or "Artillery Flares" to enhance the defensive or map awareness aspect.
Maybe a drastical one would be remove MG 34 as a non-doc from T1 unit and give it only to this doctrine only, but flack HT would need a suppression bonus after that.
Yet I just dont have the best answer of this one.

What I expect achieving here is:
*Keep factions design original and balanced.
*Help further balance changes removing possible exploits or strange synergies out of the game.
*A possible revamp to this doctrine and maybe OKW after that (?
*Tradeoff a defensive commander for better offensive strategies for OKW.
*Get feedback on this doctrine, whats good/strong/bad of it.
*Backtrack the tendency of mirroring factions because of lack of good ideas.

TLDR:
Show Spoiler

PS: I noticed I messed up the title of the thread "docrtine" haha my bad

First of all I ask you to take a moment and read this:
Show Spoiler

I think Fortifications doctrine on OKW does not fit their theme. OKM seems to be aggresive and good at spec ops and breakthroughs. The elite of german forces yet not the most conventional. okw
I know many OKW will not like to hear this, but fortifications its kind of OP in some aspects. Battlegroup Headquarters and LeFH18 synegise too well and becomes really annoying. In many 4v4 games that guy who plays fortifications just sit there and just waits to win, in 1v1 is a risky choice but its an option. IMO that fact breaks both, the faction design and balance since any buff to tanks/troops will make things easier to defend that setup. Maybe someone will argue that fortifications doctrine "its mostly to counter" other arty heavy commanders. If that is the case I consider there are better options with more fidelity to the faction aggresive design.

Other strange thing with fortifications is the field defense ability, I know, its useful as it is. But its a copy/paste of OST bunkers and mines, Its like making OKW half like OST. Again it breaks the faction design, the balance (since bunkers are great to hold ground for 0 Pcap). Need a reinforce point? you already got one. Need a blob control?, Mg34.



Maybe changing the aspect of "fortification" to an "ambush" or a "coordinated assault" design might be the first step. For example:
LeIG new abilities, ie LeIG now can camoflage to make them elusive as raketen.
A new mine type could be coded into the game, ie "Glasmine 43" this mines cant be detected with minesweepers, they are small so only affect infantry, additionaly they could cause some dot (as a bleeding effect) on the soldiers affected.
Maybe give sturmpios the ability to cloak on cover with an camoflage upgrade, an "ambush package" upgrade.
Or else take some other commander abilities like "For the Fatherland", "Signal Relay" or "Artillery Flares" to enhance the defensive or map awareness aspect.
Maybe a drastical one would be remove MG 34 as a non-doc from T1 unit and give it only to this doctrine only, but flack HT would need a suppression bonus after that.
Yet I just dont have the best answer of this one.

What I expect achieving here is:
*Keep factions design original and balanced.
*Help further balance changes removing possible exploits or strange synergies out of the game.
*A possible revamp to this doctrine and maybe OKW after that (?
*Tradeoff a defensive commander for better offensive strategies for OKW.
*Get feedback on this doctrine, whats good/strong/bad of it.
*Backtrack the tendency of mirroring factions because of lack of good ideas.

TLDR:
Show Spoiler

I agree that forti breaks 4v4 games... but imo ambush is already filled out by scavenge and specops doc while coordinated assault is already filled by breakthrough and feuersturm doc...


for okw id like mechanized doctrine... one that emulates the original german doctrine of blitzkrieg... a 251 halftrack wehr clone... a combined arms ability similar to USF... a heavy artillery barrage to break concentrations... a command p4 similar to the wehr one... and heat rounds for the armor...

Thats just my opinion doe...

By the way why are you using a tiny font... its kinda hard to read

While I don't perticularly care currently about possible revamp changes etc because it is late here for me, I do agree that fortifications is actually too strong.

From a 1v1 standpoint only: Playing against LeFH in 1v1 as USF is actually full fledged cancer. S-mine spam on volks which you have like 4 of, bunkers potentially, and then finally LeFH guarded by schwer HQ. If the LeFH hits the ambo or enough bleed it immediatly gets validated for its investment.

By the way why are you using a tiny font... its kinda hard to read

haha more text less space. Efficiency of information. Ctrl+"+" zooms in in most browsers

I agree somewhat, i think while counterable this commander is extremely anti fun for other player. This is my favorite okw pick in all modes, but I pick it due to how common static weapon team spam play styles are among allies vsing okw so a fine line should be treat.


I think the s-mines should be sturmpioneer and not volks, otherwise late game the bleed from volks spamming mines really strangles the other player, and don't say "get a sweeper", everyone has at least 3 volks if not 4 volks and also schu mines from sturm, 1-2 engineer sweepers simply cannot easily catch up to this amount of mine laying.

I think bunkers also need adjustment, as they render the AA cannon quite obsolete in this doctrine, and being that okw is incredibly manpower efficient i find myself using the bunker much more liberally than i would as wehr. Add a nominal fuel cost like USF fighting position, or make it sturm build only. Otherwise on certain maps such as langreskaya and faymonville approach I will almost always build bunkers at some point


I think the main problem with this fortifications, is that it gives a lot more efficiency to volks in terms of utility, which is worsened by manpower efficiency of okw, and their early game momentum. Instead the utility should just be extra options to sturmpioneer who are already quite busy, and a strategic trade off decision between attacking with sturm or laying mines and bunkers.


On the flip side, I think most ally players complain about this commander because they play and full commit to a lot mg/at gun/arty cheese type strats that this commander is meant to hard counter. As such i think the lefh should come earlier in cp's, i think the price is already fine, and its quite a counterable weapon but earlier availability will compensate the other nerfs, and also dissuade other player from hard investing into statics early on rather than ending the game for the other player after he full invests. Saving a lot of games of heavy static play.

its the only answer as okw to the arti fest from allies. Ever played a 4v4 with only okw players? and now imagine u would have no potent arti. You would be outclassed by the allie callin and arty spam.

everytime i dont pick fortifaction i have a hard time vs allie TD spam with easy cheesy infantery squad wipe machine besided. and than comes the priest, bl, b4, caliope, kathuja etc etc.

PW and stuka arent exactly arty...they have to short range and need vision to be effective.
with all other rocket launcher and artys you will be ok to aim a area where do u guess is the enemy..and u will have kills. not with stuka/ PW.

I suggest this before just delete lefh from this commander and we gut. U want lefh ? Then pick overwatch doctrine simple. Because fortifications + heavy artilery is op as fak

Agreed. The fortifications commander simply gives OKW too much bang for buck.

what is so hard on this commander?

the lefh? it should be easy deleteable ...exspacilly in teamgames per callin or counter arty

the bunkers? get a mortar, pak or tank

the pak43? brits have the nearly similiar gun...NONDOC!
counter it like the lefh...callin or arty



i dont see anything which isnt easy counterable with the normal teamcommanders as allie.

dont pick 1v1 commanders and u will be ok.

I would call it some kind of new meta, because in 2v2 with my friend, we have encountered many OKW players picking fortifications doctrine, and having at least 2 infantry support guns each. It's indeed a Wehrmacht rip off, but if you have artillery as Allies, you can do an easy work and push them back

what is so hard on this commander?

the lefh? it should be easy deleteable ...exspacilly in teamgames per callin or counter arty

the bunkers? get a mortar, pak or tank

the pak43? brits have the nearly similiar gun...NONDOC!
counter it like the lefh...callin or arty



i dont see anything which isnt easy counterable with the normal teamcommanders as allie.

dont pick 1v1 commanders and u will be ok.

Play the allies and you will understand how bullshit you are right now

Play the allies and you will understand how bullshit you are right now

i play allies! and when i see lefhs blinking on the minimap..i laugh and delete them with no problem. pick the right anti fortications commander and u will have eayy time to deal with them. after destroy 3-4 of them...they dont build them anymore. trust me.

what is so hard on this commander?

the lefh? it should be easy deleteable ...exspacilly in teamgames per callin or counter arty

the bunkers? get a mortar, pak or tank

the pak43? brits have the nearly similiar gun...NONDOC!
counter it like the lefh...callin or arty

Yes, but when all these defences work in conjunction with each other it's not nearly that simple.

Nothing wrong with fortifcations if you ask me, although LefHs are pretty gross in combination with the infra red halftrack, but that's a problem with the halftrack not the doctrine.

By taking fortifications they are skipping out on some of the best things OKW has to offer such as HEAT rounds, Jagdtigers and command panthers. If you're having trouble dealing with LefHs from this, just and build yourself some muni caches and take commanders with recon and a callin strike, you should have one equipped especially in this meta anyway.

Soviets:
Soviet Combined Arms, recon overflight + Il2 bombing run = No LefH, also has guards and your own Ml-20s. This doctrine is awesome.
USF:
Infantry Company, Recon + time on target = no LefH, +1919s your infantry melt volks and you have your own priests. (Best)
Armour Company, major recon + 240mm arty = no LefH
UKF:
Commando regiment, Assault + Air supremacy = no LefH (Best)
Royal artillery Regiment, Early warning + Concentration barrage = No LefH +your own sextons.

Alternatively have an ally take recon, and then you can take any commander with a callin artillery strike.

Using these you can kill the LefHs and not have to deal with the other fortifications they might have. It's literally a win button, you just have to use it.

Allies really get the long straw here, They have doctrines which not only allow you to destroy enemy artillery but destroy them and have artillery yourself, making your artillery virtually uncounterable.

Personally the only thing I see wrong with fortifications is more virtually free MG42 bunkers, but OST get that stock. Bunkers are essentially an MG42 that doesn't cost Pop cap. Bunkers and fighting positions should cost 3 pop cap and come with a self destruct button.

Fortifications doctrine
-Heavy fortifications: Useful, everyone else has an equivalent basically. Not OP

-Field defenses: useful for covering your flanks, that's it. counter by using sweepers. Bunkers are OP, need to cost pop cap.

-Pak43: powerful but weak as hell, decrew with mortars, destroy with tanks or demo charge, attack with infantry, or destroy with direct strike e.g.- time on target. Not OP

-LefH: counter with recon and direct strike or your own artillery. Not OP

-Zeroing artillery: Expensive and Requires continued line of sight, force them to retreat or retreat yourself and it won't even fire a shot. Only a problem when combined with recon which this commander doesn't have. Build anti air and it's countered for the rest of the game. Not OP.

Conclusion: Most OP thing in fortifications = Bunkers. Nothing else.

i play allies! and when i see lefhs blinking on the minimap..i laugh and delete them with no problem. pick the right anti fortications commander and u will have eayy time to deal with them. after destroy 3-4 of them...they dont build them anymore. trust me.

u can delete an LEFH once every 260 munitions.... 260 munitions!!!!! and it can be shot down

Yes, but when all these defences work in conjunction with each other it's not nearly that simple.

Nothing counters off maps. Even il2 bombing strike is hard to shoot down.

u can delete an LEFH once every 260 munitions.... 260 munitions!!!!! and it can be shot down

LOL! you should look at other commanders...not at the commanders with the most expansive callins maybe.

from 2v2 perspective don't see the problem with this commander what so ever. I don't see people struggle vs it. It's like any other commander with heavy arty. Just teammate gets vision and you get call-in barrage/strafe. All faction has doctrinal counters to it: yes - abilities are expensive, yes - you have to be lock down to certain commander but that pay off in resources your enemy lost in building LefH/ML20/B4.

i don't play 4v4 but in theory it should be even easier to cordinate commander pick ups to counter that strat.

The doctrine is very strong but I feel like OKW needs it to counter UKF sim city and/or teamweapon spam. Leig is just not enough in many cases. As with any doctrine with heavy artillery, not countering it can easily lose you the game. But that´s a problem any doctrine with ML20/Lefh has not just OKW fortifications doctrine. If you look at other factions, Soviets have lots of doctrines with ML20s (and one with B4), Ost has several LeFh doctrines, USF has infantry company with Priest, UKF has Royal Arty regiment which will soon get a buff. Why should OKW not have a arty doctrine?