Very few cost effective counters to upgraded Grens

Yes, Penals = Grens with G43s, comes out later in the game, and cost 50% more to reinforce and don't have AT nades or Orrah. Constant manpower drain crap.

As I said:

Penals=G43 Grens, in terms of DPS and survival.

Infact according to those figures, they do substantially more damage than G43, and even LMG.

They dont drain manpower if you Merge them with Cons, btw.
Cheap reinforce and all of em get SVTs.

Except that Penals don't have AT Grenades or Oorah either. And conscripts become just as much of a manpower drain.

When talking about Penal Troops, they cost the same to reinforce as G43 grens.

Merge isn't some magic thing that gives free reinforcement. Using a squad to merge makes it ineffective at combat since it loses men, and you need every squad you can get.

Except that Penals don't have AT Grenades or Oorah either. And conscripts become just as much of a manpower drain.

When talking about Penal Troops, they cost the same to reinforce as G43 grens.

Merge isn't some magic thing that gives free reinforcement. Using a squad to merge makes it ineffective at combat since it loses men, and you need every squad you can get.

Conscripts cost 20 to reinforce, Grenadiers cost 30. Grenadiers are 1.5 times as survivable, making the reinforcement cost per effective HP the same. When using merge you pay the conscript price but get Penal Battalion value.
Using merge also means you get to keep your high value squad longer on the field while making a low value squad do the running for them instead, freeing the Penals to get back into the fight sooner.

Not saying any of that is OP/UP/a problem/unproblematic, I just think both merge and penals are underused/used wrong. Penals are best when shooting from long range but most people just use them to run into the face of a LMG42 to throw a satchel and then write them off as useless when their face gets ripped off. They are certainly not easy to use and they sure as hell don't make sense beyond having more than 1 or 2, because you'd miss out on Oorah/AT grenades and a higher number can't be sustained by pure merging but they also offer value in the form of higher DPS and satchel charges.

As I said:



Infact according to those figures, they do substantially more damage than G43, and even LMG.

They dont drain manpower if you Merge them with Cons, btw.
Cheap reinforce and all of em get SVTs.

Merge is definitely helpful, in some situations, sure. But you can't just assume there just happens to be a conscript nearby every time you need to reinforce. So, most of the time, you WILL be paying 50% more than a lmg or g43 gren squad.

They come with satchels which are just retarded and only punishes command lag, instead of free fausts on grens.

You also haven't addressed the fact that they require a very expensive and excruciatingly slow to build T1 building.

Fact is, Penals under perform for their cost, even though they are not useless by any means. There is just no incentive at all to build them instead of more conscripts or Guards.

But you can't just assume there just happens to be a conscript nearby every time you need to reinforce.

Implying I assumed that anywhere.

So, most of the time, you WILL be paying 50% more than a lmg or g43 gren squad.

As little as possible would be better.

They come with satchels which are just retarded and only punishes command lag, instead of free fausts on grens.

Yes, but not really relevant to DPS.

You also haven't addressed the fact that they require a very expensive and excruciatingly slow to build T1 building.

Why should I address that, when I was talking about DPS?
Are you trying to imply I have said things I haven't?

Your whole post reads like an "excuse" post for Penals, trying to defend how shitty they are.

I was just pointing out their excellent DPS. Sorry if that confused you.

Your whole post reads like an "excuse" post for Penals, trying to defend how shitty they are.

Hmmm... What? I'm "defending" how shitty they are? I am pretty sure I'm advocating a buff for them, actually.

Also, I never accused you of stating incorrect DPS numbers or giving false information. Where do you come off accusing people of random things? My earlier post contained only a list of reasons why Penals are not cost effective, and was not a personal attack.

Relax, bro.

Hmmm... What? I'm "defending" how shitty they are? I am pretty sure I'm advocating a buff for them, actually.

Also, I never accused you of stating incorrect DPS numbers or giving false information. Where do you come off accusing people of random things? My earlier post contained only a list of reasons why Penals are not cost effective, and was not a personal attack.

Relax, bro.

I just stated the stats, and you come at me with implications.

Relax, bro. No need to immediately start pre-emptive defensive posturing.

Penals have excellent DPS.

DPS, but DPS doesn't equal real world play. This isn't Starcraft.

The LMG has an advantage because when it fires, its damage isn't distributed over a squad, and instead goes to a single man. This is why the LMG is so effective at killing. It starts cutting down squad members, quickly reducing the target squad's damage output. Meanwhile, with superior armor and range, the enemy has to come to them.

If the Penals try to charge forward to engage, if there isn't enough cover along the way, they are cut down to low numbers before being able to throw a satchel.

G43s have a similar effect, although more likely to spread the damage amongst the squad.

Pure DPS numbers are nice, but still not indicative of play. A good starting point, but not the end all.

Penals have excellent DPS.

"cue next guy again making a defensive post"

Nooo, don't try to move the penals, especially not toward the LMG42 =(

Get into cover and shoot from there... if you really must close the distance, do it with some conscripts. This is what I meant: People are focusing too much on their flame thrower and satchel throw and then they get ripped to shreds

DPS, but DPS doesn't equal real world play. This isn't Starcraft.

The LMG has an advantage because when it fires, its damage isn't distributed over a squad, and instead goes to a single man. This is why the LMG is so effective at killing. It starts cutting down squad members, quickly reducing the target squad's damage output. Meanwhile, with superior armor and range, the enemy has to come to them.

If the Penals try to charge forward to engage, if there isn't enough cover along the way, they are cut down to low numbers before being able to throw a satchel.

G43s have a similar effect, although more likely to spread the damage amongst the squad.

Pure DPS numbers are nice, but still not indicative of play. A good starting point, but not the end all.

+1

Well articulated. Either LMGs need to be nerfed or Penals/Conscripts need a buff.

The fact that an anti-infantry only elite unit (Penals) loses horribly (for cost) to their ideal target (Grens) is a clear balance problem.

Nooo, don't try to move the penals, especially not toward the LMG42 =(

Get into cover and shoot from there... if you really must close the distance, do it with some conscripts. This is what I meant: People are focusing too much on their flame thrower and satchel throw and then they get ripped to shreds

+1

Well stated.

Penals have excellent DPS.

"cue next guy again making a defensive post"

Says the guy making yet another defensive post?

Oh wait, that isn't Nullist speaking, it's his tape recorder he uses to repeat the same stupid things over and over when he can't think of anything else to say.

My point still stands, and you're just repeating yourself because you can't refute the nature of the LMG. It kills individual men very quickly, dropping the squad overall.

This was actually an issue in DoW2 as well, with the SM Tactical Squad vs Chaos Space Marine with tzeentch upgrade match up. Overall, the SM Tacticals had less DPS, however their Plasma gun would apply such large damage to a single man that it would kill someone quickly, causing a massive drop in DPS from the Chaos squad.

Infantry in CoH2 aren't space marines, they drop even more quickly.

As a side note, I still argue that Penals shouldn't be getting SVTs, and were basically thrown in as an out of place stopgap. Literally everything about them says they are close assaulting units. You cannot blame anyone for trying to use them that way, regardless of what the stats say. Heck, if you didn't zoom in all the way with them, no one would even know they had SVTs until they checked the stats.

The design of Penal Troops is broken. I say, remove the unit, and replace it with a unit named Veteran Strelkovy, maybe even Siberian Veterans**, with SVTs, replace the abilities with the old beta vet conscript ability to inspire troops around them. Make Penals something else, maybe a B2 (building 2 unit) or a commander unit that's geared towards what the unit is presented.

** Historical note, Germany was quite surprised after their initial invasion into Russia when veteran troops from Siberia, fresh from their battles against Japan, were transferred west to fight Germans. This influx of experienced fighters was a shock for them.

Seems all someone needs to do around here is say:

"Penals have excellent DPS."

And people get upset, personal and defensive about it.

Seriously. What. the. fuck.

Same survival as Grens.
Cheap reinforce with Merge.
DPS that outshines G43s and even LMGs if fielded properly.

In the asymmetric roster structure, they are a half-step above vanilla Grens, and competitive with upgraded Grens.

As rofltehcat pointed out, it seems people are trying to use them in some kind of misguided assault attempts, leading to pretty predictable failures and results.

And I'm making a larger argument for a huge change, that you are conveniently ignoring.

There's more going on here than just DPS.

But do go on being oblivious, then acting surprised when people call you on your BS.

I haven't said anything that is BS, though you keep trying to imply I have said things I have not, or inferred things that I have not, or not considered things that I have.

Basically pretty transparent knee-jerk reactions (which are telling of the people who make them) to what was essentially a benign and factual statement:

"Penals have excellent DPS."

Which is true.

Sorry if that upsets you somehow, but it still remains true, nonetheless.

Key: Near / Medium / Far
Penals: 34.674 / 21.816 / 8.952
G43: 23.956 / 16.484 / 9.012
LMG: 28.423 / 18.848 / 9.273

The info about the LMG targeting a single entity was pretty interesting and very relevant to the thread, thank you.

I don't get why anyone still argue with Nullist - there's a reason he's got his own "fanclub". Dude needs to grow up forum-wise.

I don't get why anyone still argue with Nullist - there's a reason he's got his own "fanclub". Dude needs to grow up forum-wise.

Says the person making an overt troll statement.

Many people agree with me frequently on many issues but I refuse to be drawn into a false provocation from you that implies your position to have even an ounce of validity or truth to it.

I honestly don't care about hate-clubs, or other personal bullshit.
This isn't a popularity contest. None of what goes on here should be personal.
You and some others seem to be completely incapable of grasping that.
Keep your hate to yourself. Its not my problem.

Ofc LMG targets only one model at a time. So do all small arms.
That doesn't mean the next burst hits the same model though, as it doesn't for other small arms either.

Basically his "observation" means pretty much nothing in the context of an actual engagement. The DPS is as I posted.

The problem with penals is accuracy at far distances they will only hit and do damage 17% of the time, this doesn't even take into effect cover modifiers which are likely to be used by both sides at range. Conscripts in comparison have 16% and grens unupgraded have 35% change. They all do 16 damage greans having a DPS: 1.0294 at far range and penals a DPS: 1.4924. the extra DPS is basicly equal to the more likley pen chance of grens, add in lmgs and rifle nades and at best you can say a penal is equal to only maybe slighty better then a gren at range.

Onced they are vetted up things may change but the point is that in a normal game setting penals are slightly better at combating grens then a conscript but they cost 120 more and when you get them they are likley to facing vetted or close to vetted grens and things like pgrens which are much better at fighting cons compared to grens. Gettting a penal is almost no better then geting a conscript becuase your trading Molotovs and at nades. If you can some how survive long enough to get them vetted then you will have better inf but the same could be said of shocks which have a much better impact when they hit and have the same unit weaknesses.

Penals should cost something like 280 mp and take 40 seconds to build instead of 360 and 50 seconds then they would be worth it as an elite infantry choice.

The problem with penals is accuracy at far distances they will only hit and do damage 17% of the time, this doesn't even take into effect cover modifiers which are likely to be used by both sides at range. Conscripts in comparison have 16% and grens unupgraded have 35% change. They all do 16 damage greans having a DPS: 1.0294 at far range and penals a DPS: 1.4924. the extra DPS is basicly equal to the more likley pen chance of grens, add in lmgs and rifle nades and at best you can say a penal is equal to only maybe slighty better then a gren at range.

Oh yeah, right. Even the numbers copied by Nullist (I guess from the DPS spreadsheet) show that. This does seem rather odd to be honest because the SVTs really are long range rifles.
Looking purely at the DPS figures, conscripts and penals seem to do roughly 25% of their short range DPS at far range and LMG42 seems to do 36%. for the Kar98K this seems to be 27%. Even the officer's Luger and the Mosins of Guards seem to follow roughly the same rules.
I really wonder why the LMG42 is that effective at long range.

Edit: Only other one out seems to be the DP LMG of guards, at 31.4%, so not as abnormal. I wonder how the vehicle MGs compare to that...