Westwall

Balance directly affects map viability. Depending on patch cycle a map can go from balanced to broken and back again. To pull a random example out of pile: maps from EFA era never took into account the impact of OKW's flak HQ, or british emplacements.

The effectiveness of a mortar pit in, say, the British base also covering a VP or two, or the ability for one player to get sight of an opponents base for timely offmaps were heavily map dependent and balance issues that no longer affect how a map is played. (No offmaps in base, mortar pit/emplacement nerfs, etc.)

Balance blames maps, maps blame balance, but really, they're inextricably intertwined. Proper maps account for balance, proper balance accounts for maps.

That said: Westwall.

I actually think A_E's VP placement might stand to benefit Westwall. One one hand, the munis by the base might work (hard to contest point, easy OP point) but it is also a 1v1 map, so whatever.

The harder to contest VPs kind of balance out the easier to contest fuels. It kind of looks like leftside will initially be compelled to push south, and right to push north, with each pivoting to the other side as the VP game progresses. That, or it'll end up with each taking a side and slugging out the middle. Probably the latter though I think it'd still be more dynamic than the current territory configuration.

Sry for the later answer.
I was ill the last days. I have started with the rework today. For the moment i'm working in the list of the post here:


Green stuff is already done. For the last point i cant see any solutions here. On one side it seems to me - basing on the comments - that the are more or less a problem of individual players. On the other side i cant see any benefit in removing the buildings. Sure. They protect one cutoff. Back in the old days people complain that the map cutoffs were a problem. Now you can fight for two different cutoffs and anyone is happy?

- North vp house: 3 rifle nade / 2 single mrotar hits
- South vp house 6 rifle nade / surive a whole mortar barrage

- I can't find any redcover anymore?

I dont like those "half red road cover". Players cant see where it starts and where it ends. So i have decided to delete all red cover roads. For the vp houses... thx wb. They have the same amount of hp. Relic building model is wired and bugged as hell...

I dont like those "half red road cover". Players cant see where it starts and where it ends. So i have decided to delete all red cover roads. For the vp houses... thx wb. They have the same amount of hp. Relic building model is wired and bugged as hell...

Pls put the red cover back again in the version you showed in your screenshot.
Its better for driving and gameplay decisions.

People can see it easly: Select an inf unit and then go across the maps. ( So i do it always to see where is redcover or yellow cover, etc)

I dont mind a little bit of red cover, the problem with the red cover was that it was outside of the base and you had to cross a red cover road to get to the house on the cutoff and the cutoff itself, in the new version I can still see a little bit of red cover in the area of the house cutoff/cutoff. And other thing for sure the cutoff houses cant stay there.

I dont mind a little bit of red cover, the problem with the red cover was that it was outside of the base and you had to cross a red cover road to get to the house on the cutoff and the cutoff itself, in the new version I can still see a little bit of red cover in the area of the house cutoff/cutoff. And other thing for sure the cutoff houses cant stay there.

Yes, as i said the red cover in the picture is super fine for me.

about cutoff houses: https://www.coh2.org/topic/81126/westwall-poll-cutoffhouses

So what is your advise? And think about what tric said

Putting green cover there means, if you lose your cutoff, you will never get it back. If anything just damage out the houses entirely and use them as a LoS blocker, this way you can put green cover near it (rubble/debris) but not worry about blocking entrance to the house. This will give you options to flank and push into your own cutoff (cause of the LoS blocking of the house) and still have green cover to play around and contest/defend off of.

My advice is that Rommel does the change that he thinks is better and then we test it, I already gave my advice in previous comments

Map v3.2 updated with red cover roads and pathfinding adjustments.

Map v3.2 updated with red cover roads and pathfinding adjustments.

I see that the cutoff houses still in the same place and there is a good portion of red cover road left

Well. There are two problems:
First: Those semi red cover streets are still counterintuitive construct. Most maps (i think all Relic maps) used full red cover roads or non red cover at all. There is no mixture of those "street mechanics". When i'm deleting the hole red cover roads people are not happy. So i can move the red cover subroad (it is an invisible road here that is generating the red cover) to the dragon teeth line. But like i said; it will feel awkward because only half of your roads will feel/behave like CoH2 roads (vehicle speed bonus). To be honest i would delete the hole red cover but it seems to me that no one else support those idea.
Second: Sturmpanther started a pool for the Westwall cutoff houses. The result is not clear. It seems to me that there are two groups; one group supports the houses and one group want to delete them. The problem is that there is not enough feedback. I can upload new versions but i think there is no feedback about the new solution. So i can change it but no one will tell me the result or gameplay impact.

Well. There are two problems:
First: Those semi red cover streets are still counterintuitive construct. Most maps (i think all Relic maps) used full red cover roads or non red cover at all. There is no mixture of those "street mechanics". When i'm deleting the hole red cover roads people are not happy. So i can move the red cover subroad (it is an invisible road here that is generating the red cover) to the dragon teeth line. But like i said; it will feel awkward because only half of your roads will feel/behave like CoH2 roads (vehicle speed bonus). To be honest i would delete the hole red cover but it seems to me that no one else support those idea.
Second: Sturmpanther started a pool for the Westwall cutoff houses. The result is not clear. It seems to me that there are two groups; one group supports the houses and one group want to delete them. The problem is that there is not enough feedback. I can upload new versions but i think there is no feedback about the new solution. So i can change it but no one will tell me the result or gameplay impact.

If you delete the entire road the map will feel larger.

The solution is to do what we always have to do with roads when this happens, put craters on it, even if completely invisible they will provide yellow cover for safe passage. You could also try and negate this with ditches as they do the same thing.

Also the second point is correct, you will have people bitch about the houses staying or about them not being removed, you will never make everyone happy that plays the game. Trust your judgement on it and move from there.

Typically however, houses on the cutoff at all is a no-no. So I guess damage it out all the way/ sight block it so it isn't as strong, or out right removal.

Yes its a shame and normal problem as always for maps.
20 People vote for westwall cutoff changes LUL...
Very disappointing.

Its funny when it is about kicking out maps, i reach to 124 votes.
So for me personal with adding some more HP to the houses, so that not 1 nade kill it. It should be ok. The rest of the changes improve the map already.
And tbh since i know the players: Most of them will not really give the map a chance sadly anyway. As they always do. Still veto, because they always vetoed it. Why they should try the new version out Kappa.

It is, what it is. It was the same for ettelbrück or moscow or semoksiy. In early phase after patch i heared everywhere, ah sturmpanther still bullshit map. But then after some month: Hey Sturm, acutally the map is way better now xD

I have uploaded a new version.
The cutoff buildings are damaged and cant be garrisoned by units anymore. I want to keep the object because of the LoS blocking at the cutoff. I have modified the cover around those non-garrison-houses to help players to fight for the cutoff. Feedback is welcome.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=794967218

Elevation on this map was horrible and is horrible still. So many deadspots where paks will always miss and mg's will not suppress. A map where you have to memorize that many elevation issues is not worth being in the pool.

Not only that, there are so many horrendous pathing issues. I get why people want to remove roads and add obstacles to the map to add some diversity but this game engine and most importantly the game pathfinding simply can't handle it. It's painful to watch vehicle play on this map. And again if you have to memorize where the "dead zones" are for vehicle pathfinding; that's not fun at all especially when it's not bleeding obvious.

Elevation on this map was horrible and is horrible still. So many deadspots where paks will always miss and mg's will not suppress. A map where you have to memorize that many elevation issues is not worth being in the pool.

you have some special place in mind? screenshots?

Just played the map and I had units not be suppressed against my MG42 while moving towards the center crater and VP. My vp was parked behind the natural heavy cover of the on-map decrewed vehicle. Basically lost me the game as the penals decrewed my MG when they should've been suppressed after 1 volley much less 4. Rewatching it made it seem like it was an elevation issue.

Then there's the issue of vehicles firing through the middle and missing because of elevation as well.

All the issues I listed can be seen with people that play the map. I get that people want something different, but this game engine simply can't handle the issues in a clear way. If it was obvious elevation would be an issue or pathfinding an issue with clear on-map markers; it'd be less frustrating but it's not really obvious until after the fact.

Just played the map and I had units not be suppressed against my MG42 while moving towards the center crater and VP. My vp was parked behind the natural heavy cover of the on-map decrewed vehicle. Basically lost me the game as the penals decrewed my MG when they should've been suppressed after 1 volley much less 4. Rewatching it made it seem like it was an elevation issue.

Then there's the issue of vehicles firing through the middle and missing because of elevation as well.

All the issues I listed can be seen with people that play the map. I get that people want something different, but this game engine simply can't handle the issues in a clear way. If it was obvious elevation would be an issue or pathfinding an issue with clear on-map markers; it'd be less frustrating but it's not really obvious until after the fact.

are you sure, that you played on the reworked version?

There are numerous issues with Westwall and they become more apparent with every game. Yes I have checked out the updated version and the improvements are welcome but the dragons teeth and elevation are too inconsistent and difficult to recognize(quality issue). The reason this is a problem is because in the heat of battle the player may not notice that his tank is about to get into trouble on tank traps. It may have been better if the teeth ran direction wise diagonally from the corners opposite the bases, then tanks could back up in a straight line instead of turning. The elevation is also inconsistant with some shots still hitting terrain and objects. I also notice pak guns will phase through the smaller tank traps but not the larger ones, again this at a glance will be misleading. There are other issues relating to the cutoffs and the layout in that area that are also still problematic. The centre also too open making flanking mgs too easy and at the same time flanking snipers almost imposibble. There also seems to be to much unnecessary small clutter on the dragons teeth. All of this could be improved with input from more experience mapmakers.

So you said you played the reworked version. Then explain me pls this:
elevation
Live version:
https://prnt.sc/kdd1d3
Reworked version:
https://prnt.sc/kdczvn

Dragon teeth
Live version:
https://prnt.sc/kdd151
Reworked version:
https://prnt.sc/kdd02k

I see no problem there, neither the mapmaker. But pls explain it.

And since you are a big fan from whiteflash and / or crossroad:
https://prnt.sc/kdd4ji
https://prnt.sc/kdd511

Tho nobody complains about it hm...

And since you are a big fan from whiteflash and / or crossroad:
https://prnt.sc/kdd4ji
https://prnt.sc/kdd511

Tho nobody complains about it hm...

https://www.coh2.org/topic/62203/crossroads-by-whiteflashreborn/post/625976

Very first sentence : "As i stated earlier, start position 2 is at a disadvantage due to confined space, shot blockers and elevation. This primarily a bigger issue for ost than other factions."

The fixed version is still bad. The center crater is still a horrible RNG fest because it is still elevated. Everyone is still vetoing this map. Please just remove it from the pool. Put one of Tric's new maps on. At least they look cool and Tric has enough iterative experience to create maps that don't have the pathing and elevation issues one-offs like these have.