soviet early game solutions

i think it's already apparent that soviet early game is much more difficult than the german one because of how unkillable german mgs are, with the exception of clown scout cars and snipers ( which needs to be nerfed ). even when conscripts flank mg42s the mgs still take a while to die so soviets have to remove them with brute force ( frontal attacks with AT guns or mortars). also german mortars shoots incredibly fast, which counters soviet 83mm mortars more effectively than the soviet mortar can counter the germans. why does conscripts still need to buy upgrades to use their moltovs and at nades?

i understand why the allied faction needed upgrades in vcoh because a fully upgraded rifleman can dominate volksgrenadiers and grenadiers, because the whermacht faction needs to buy veterancy upgrades to make them stronger. however, soviet conscripts still cannot beat the german grenadiers even when fully upgraded, and the germans does not buy veterancy, so it does not make much sense to mirror the soviet faction to the american one.

since, german scout cars are even more deadly when upgraded and flame halftrack are still very strong, and at nades no longer does 100 pct crits, it doesn't make sense why soviets need to purchase their upgrades. soviets should not have to purchase their moltovs since they need more dps on the now more robust german mg42s. as these new patches come by, it makes it less understandable why the soviets need to buy upgrades for their abilities as german things get stronger and soviet things gets much weaker.

also now that german pioneers are able to take on soviet engineers why are the soviet engineers still more expensive? the soviet engineer price should be reduced to 200mp. another weird thing is, both pioneers and engineers consume a popcap of 6 when they are 4 men squads that are not very combat effective that also needs to change so the player can field more infantry.

so what i want is, soviet conscripts should come with their moltovs and at nades from the start, engineers should be 200 manpower, and pioneers and engineers should consume 4 pop instead of 6. if you want to have upgrades from the soviet hq the soviets should have resource upgrades in their HQs like the german opelz. that would make a lot more sense and balance things a little more.

others tell me what you think or your own suggestions on improving early game and if you like it make sure relics reads this!

so what i want is, soviet conscripts should come with their moltovs and at nades from the start,

that would screw with t2 and t3 timings pretty hard.

relic needs to tune down the MG42 and improve flanking in the game overall. also a slight damage reduction on pgrens. and 222 needs to be break faster to HMG fire. right now you can just drive it into the enemy base and camp the HQ and there is nothing soviet can do about it (unless 2xcons at nade maybe, yay new meta)

MG42s need a major nerf. I don't think free molotovs/at nades are the answer though.

While soviet mid/late game has more options thanks to T34 and SU85 tweaks, their early game is still pigeonholed into cons, clowncars and snipers due to MG42s being too strong. Not to say you can't win going T2 its just so much harder. MG42 is being addressed next patch so hopefully that will fix things a bit. Molotovs and AT nades being free would be a bit much. Maybe one of the free perhaps, not both. See what Relic do with HMG balance first imo.

Anything done to MG42s, needs to be mirrored by a nerf to Maxims as well.

Though still, I dont see the problem.
Use light vehicles vs MG42s. Problem solved.

If your trying to beat an HMG with one infantry squad, you deserve to get F'd in the A.

And someone suggesting PGren dmg nerf? All my lols...

Nullist you have played a grand total of 1 game on the ladder as Soviet so of course you "don't see the problem". Get some more experience with them before commenting on their balance please. The Maxim and MG42 are very different, starting with their timing on their field.

Yes, its called asymmetric balance.

MG42 already has only 3/4 the survival of Maxims.

What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

(PS: 42 total 1v1s played is not really much for balance discussion either, bro)

I found the mortar very useful in dislodging MGs IMO, so it's a very decent counter and not useless unlike other ppl claimed.

I even had 2 stars of vet on it.

Yes, its called asymmetric balance.

MG42 already has only 3/4 the survival of Maxims.

What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

(PS: 42 total 1v1s played is not really much for balance discussion either, bro)

I'm not sure if you play Soviets, but you can't really commit to M3s because ACs usually come out within a minute of the first M3. Guards counter the ACs, but those same MG42s also owns guards.

I'm not sure if you play Soviets, but you can't really commit to M3s because ACs usually come out within a minute of the first M3. Guards counter the ACs, but those same MG42s also owns guards.

What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

MG42 will be nerfed in next patch~ I think dev mentioned that b4

What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

The devs mentioned creating a damage received modifier so that they take more damage from small arms while remaining robust against snipers and explosives. This would reward flanking a bit more.

It seems pretty reasonable.

However, I believe conscripts need a small buff on top of this. Possibly make Molotov research cheaper or throw faster.

only problem in EARLY right now imo MG42.

The devs mentioned creating a damage received modifier so that they take more damage from small arms while remaining robust against snipers and explosives. This would reward flanking a bit more.

It seems pretty reasonable.

Guess what. That will apply to Maxims too.
MG42s already have only 3/4 the staying power of Maxims.

that would screw with t2 and t3 timings pretty hard.

relic needs to tune down the MG42 and improve flanking in the game overall. also a slight damage reduction on pgrens. and 222 needs to be break faster to HMG fire. right now you can just drive it into the enemy base and camp the HQ and there is nothing soviet can do about it (unless 2xcons at nade maybe, yay new meta)

i don't see why free moltovs and at nades will disrupt t2, and t3 as soviet buildings cost a lot and have long build times, and moltovs and at nades are optional.

also the soviets needs the at nade to have any chance against scout cars and flame halftracks when guards aren't available. + guards need to button halftracks to kill it, which is easily disabled by smoke. and at guns can't be around most of the time because they are so damn expensive. also moltovs are not very useful when someone is vigilant enough to dodge them and therefore not many players use them. ( although they are useful because of the damn bug that if one squad member got caught in the fire the rest will jump in for some reason )

Guess what. That will apply to Maxims too.
MG42s already have only 3/4 the staying power of Maxims.

mg42s have 3/4th the survivability but twice the suppression and 3x the arc, it's a pretty good trade off do you think?

mg42s have 3/4th the survivability but twice the suppression and 3x the arc, it's a pretty good trade off do you think?

Its not double suppression (which otherwise is asymmetrically balanced vs Maxims higher nominal and effective DPS), and the arc is asymmetrically balanced vs Maxims faster setup.

The survival difference really isn't compensated for asymmetrically, and used to be even worse.

Do you not remember that MG42s and Ost Support teams used to infact have only 1/2 the survival of Sov Support teams?

Less than half in the case of mortars (5 v 2 kills to decrew). German Pak and mortar definitely needed the extra man, not sure on the hmg42. Again, let's see what they do with hmgs next patch before looking at cons etc

I do agree MG42s need to be looked at. It's pretty silly that the Ostheer can easily park them and lock down half the map unless the Soviet player deploys superior micro or hard counters (M3, sniper). No micro is required to use MG42s thanks to their giant arc, almost instant suppression and survivability; unless it eats a molotov and stands sill, an MG crew than easily survive 10 seconds of sustained conscript fire point-blank. Which is honestly stupid.

If I manage to flank your 140 degree arc MG, I deserve to turn its crew into carrior fodder in short order. That's assuming it doesn't simply pack up and stroll away towards a group of grenadiers while the conscripts fire uselessly at them. Fortunately, it seems Relic agrees.

@The_Courier:

1) What exactly are you specifically suggesting should be changed on MG42?

2) And why do people keep bringing up explicitly MG42 survival, completely disregsrding that it is akready at 3/4 of Maxim survival? Do you think a MG42 at 1/2 survival of Maxim is realistic or conducive to balance?

I understand that people feel they have claims on this issue, but nobody is giving any concrete specific solution suggestions. Nor do I see anyone trying to reconcile those suggestions with the existing HMG situation on both factions.

Essentially, it amounts to whine with no solution presented, and no consideration of how those changes would match up asymmetrically to Maxim.

Ill run through the apparent asymmetry again.
= Ost Arc vs Sov Setup
= Ost Pin vs Sov DPS
= Sov 6 man vs Ost 4 man

If you have a differing perspective on that asymmetry, please explain it.
If you have a suggestion how to re-align that asymmetry for better balance, please elaborate on that and explain it.

Otherwise this leads nowhere.

NOTE:
- I think people are not understanding the difference between Suppressed and Pinned. The difference in pinning time between HMGs is not as dramatic as people are mkaing it out to be. 2 Bursts from Maxim WILL suppress infantry.
- As difficult as it is to maneuver around the MG42s arc, that is mitigated by two core factors:
-i) Oorah
-ii) The MG42 takes longer to reposition to reapply fire on a succesful flank.
Meaning that though the arc is narrower on a Maxim, and thus flanking action is more essily frontally achievable, it ALSO means the Maxim can proportionately quicker relocate to apply fire on that flank. This is asymmetric balance in practice.

The survival issue is, to me, a complete misnomer. MG42s already operate at 3/4 survival. Its a fallacy to claim that MG42s are too hard to damage with small arms, when infact Maxims are EVEN MORESO. Any claim that MG42s are too survivable, is also a claim that Maxims are EVEN MORE too survivable.