Ostruppen having an MP40 upgrade

Why do people keep bringing up assault grens when the suggestion in the first place wasn't because Ost lacked cqc options, but rather the fact that Ostruppen (and only ostruppen) have absolutely no counters to Hit the Dirt, which is a completely free ability?

The point in the first place was giving Ostruppen the option to swap all their long-range dps at BP2 to be a squad that's practically 6 pioneer models' worth of dps with the ability to grenade while keeping their negative RA modifiers.

It has nothing to do with overlapping with assault grens because while they both use MP40s, Ostruppen are inherently far more inferior in quality, have to pay for their upgrade, and have to wait for BP2 for said upgrade.

It is, for all intents and purposes, the ability to pay munis for a 6-man pioneer squad with none of the abilities of a pioneer except for building trenches and bunkers, and the ability to throw a simple stick grenade.

You can't rush them like assault grens because they can't sprint. They're muni-hungry if you rely on grenades and they're overall more fragile than regular Ostruppen because while they share the same negative RA, they need to get close and take more damage just so they can even do damage.

All this, so that ppsh conscripts can't just oorah right next to their faces and Hit the Dirt and kill enough models to force an early retreat- And only if you chose the MP40 rather than the LMG.

Why do people keep bringing up assault grens when the suggestion in the first place wasn't because Ost lacked cqc options, but rather the fact that Ostruppen (and only ostruppen) have absolutely no counters to Hit the Dirt, which is a completely free ability?

Osttruppen should be supplement for grens, not replacement, so rifle nade them.
Attacking at range is also an option as cons with that ability do literally nothing at long range, while osttrupen are quite accurate in cover at all ranges.

The point in the first place was giving Ostruppen the option to swap all their long-range dps at BP2 to be a squad that's practically 6 pioneer models' worth of dps with the ability to grenade while keeping their negative RA modifiers.

Or you could just build PGs.

It has nothing to do with overlapping with assault grens because while they both use MP40s, Ostruppen are inherently far more inferior in quality, have to pay for their upgrade, and have to wait for BP2 for said upgrade.

And by that time, cqc squad with pio fragility is of no relevance, just like pios and other non brit/okw engineers, so what's the point of introducing something that is useless?

It is, for all intents and purposes, the ability to pay munis for a 6-man pioneer squad with none of the abilities of a pioneer except for building trenches and bunkers, and the ability to throw a simple stick grenade.

Then why won't you get another pioneer squad instead?
Received accuracy of osttruppen makes them as durable as 4 man squad against anything except snipers anyway.

You can't rush them like assault grens because they can't sprint. They're muni-hungry if you rely on grenades and they're overall more fragile than regular Ostruppen because while they share the same negative RA, they need to get close and take more damage just so they can even do damage.

That still does sound like something completely useless and already present in form of regular pioneers.

All this, so that ppsh conscripts can't just oorah right next to their faces and Hit the Dirt and kill enough models to force an early retreat- And only if you chose the MP40 rather than the LMG.

Again, PGs.

Eeeee, like ass grens don't have 0cp so they can't be used immediately.

The unit you describe is already in game, it's called assault grenadiers and has the utilities as you describe. Plus close range squad is already in ostruppen commander, it's a field officer. Ostruppen never needed a mp40 and they will never get one

They are 0 cp, they just suck so bad that nobody uses them cuz they do no damage and have no utility.

Basically, you just end up spamming 280 mp pioneers that cant build anything

They are 0 cp, they just suck so bad that nobody uses them cuz they do no damage and have no utility.

Basically, you just end up spamming 280 mp pioneers that cant build anything

Their utility is capturing weapon crews for cheap reinforcement, swarming map for map control and stalling opponents.

Their dps in cover is actually decent.

Their additional utility are fausts, which allow you to faust risk free for actually worthy anything grens.

Their utility is capturing weapon crews for cheap reinforcement, swarming map for map control and stalling opponents.

Their dps in cover is actually decent.

Their additional utility are fausts, which allow you to faust risk free for actually worthy anything grens.

I was talking about ass grens, who dont get fausts and have really bad dps (it feels like) for a cqc unit.

I was talking about ass grens, who dont get fausts and have really bad dps (it feels like) for a cqc unit.

and becouse you think they suck so much you want to make ostruppen just a copy/paste unit with only diffrent stats, 1 more ability and look? Jeez people, ostheer doesn't need 2 same units in their load out. If you want a better assult grens just make a topic to buff that unit. Ostruppen is a unique unit and it should stay that way.

and becouse you think they suck so much you want to make ostruppen just a copy/paste unit with only diffrent stats, 1 more ability and look? Jeez people, ostheer doesn't need 2 same units in their load out. If you want a better assult grens just make a topic to buff that unit. Ostruppen is a unique unit and it should stay that way.

No, I would prefer ostruppen remain as is, as they are fine.

Ass Grens though need to just be better for what you get, 280 mp for a unit useful for the first few minutes of the game with no scaling. idk better recieved accuracy buffs with vet or something as they do not provide anything you couldnt get with regular grens (minus the fifth model).

I think the LMG42 upgrade on Osttruppen is a bit silly at the moment. Before you go crazy, let me clarify, they should definitely get an LMG, just not an MG42.

Ostruppen LMG42s are very weak compared to the Geenadier version, as a result of the lower accuracy and give both the using and defending against player a sound and visual cue that isn’t consistent. A player facing an MG42 shouldn’t be able to ignore it like you can against Osttruppen, nor should Wher players be let down by its performance vs it’s visual and audio cues.

Give the Ostruppen either a DP-28 or a Bren Gun and give it to them for free, always, and with no upgrade. Leave them with one empty weapon slot for picking up dropped weapons, but not the ability to purchase a second of the starting LMG. This will give both players a better distinction visibly and audibly that they are facing a different weapon profile and allow Ostruppen call ins to be more predictable, which is always good for balance.

Historically, the Germans armed their less well thought of allies such as Osttruppen with second and third tier weapons in order to give their own men the best weapons like MG34s and MG42s. They would have had plenty of captured DP-28s from the Russians to give to their allies and the Bren Gun is a copy of the Chezk ZB-26 Light Machinegun that the Germans had in large numbers.

I like the extra flavor of Ostruppen getting a less desirable captured weapon that also aids in unit identification, unit flavor and game balance.

No, I would prefer ostruppen remain as is, as they are fine.

Ass Grens though need to just be better for what you get, 280 mp for a unit useful for the first few minutes of the game with no scaling. idk better recieved accuracy buffs with vet or something as they do not provide anything you couldnt get with regular grens (minus the fifth model).

Fair point. Sorry for sounding so hostile. I agree that their scalling with time doesn't look very well. Maybe some ammo armor upgrade to give them RA buff (like shocks had in Fall balance mode).

Another thing is that with old stugE nerf and Tiger not being a meta recently this commander isn't very used. Therefore we don't see assault grens on the battlefield.

Short digression about assault gren.

About ostruppen, like the GI John idea for changing mg42 with other ally stolen lmg or even new designed outdated lmg. Would be a cool idea imo (sadly audio would be the biggest problem i guess).

Why would audio be a problem? Do you mean that they voice of the Ostruppen unit refers to themselves as getting an MG42 as an upgrade? If so, then it’s a moot point if they start off with an LMG, then they don’t ever have to say that they have received their “new MG42”. Lol

Additionally, randomly starting with any LMG is a plausible way to work it, as it doesn’t need to be any specific allied LMG to make sense, even purely on the eastern front because:

Chezks had ZB-26 (Bren Gun) captured in large numbers
Soviets obviously had the DP-28 and were captured as well.
Poland had a variation of the BAR which were also captured early in the war.

Really, the only ones that wouldn’t make sense would be the M1919A6 and the Vickers K.

So instead of having an upgrade to an LMG42 and a chance to spawn with them (mobile defense), how about if each squad gets one LMG every time, but it is a random single LMG with equal chance to be an MG42, MG34, BAR, DP-28 or a Bren Gun. No upgrade at all, and if they lose it it’s gone, but you get something for free no matter what, but it isn’t always going to be an MG42.

So you get balance because it’s a sure thing to get an LMG, but it’s not completely the same every time due to the randomness of WHICH LMG you get. Thoughts?

Ass Grens though need to just be better for what you get, 280 mp for a unit useful for the first few minutes of the game with no scaling. idk better recieved accuracy buffs with vet or something as they do not provide anything you couldnt get with regular grens (minus the fifth model).

Compare ass grens to an allied unit priced 280 (tommies) they probably scale better without upgrades. The downside is when allies invest in side tech, then they will turn the tables and become better lategame.

But this doesn't mean they are useless and do nothing that grens can't do, they still work as a flanking unit lategame to tear up vickers or maxim crews. Don't underestimate sprint and nades, you just won't be able to charge a capping tommy or rifle squad and win every engagement like the first 5mins.

Why do people keep bringing up assault grens when the suggestion in the first place wasn't because Ost lacked cqc options, but rather the fact that Ostruppen (and only ostruppen) have absolutely no counters to Hit the Dirt, which is a completely free ability?

The point in the first place was giving Ostruppen the option to swap all their long-range dps at BP2 to be a squad that's practically 6 pioneer models' worth of dps with the ability to grenade while keeping their negative RA modifiers.

It has nothing to do with overlapping with assault grens because while they both use MP40s, Ostruppen are inherently far more inferior in quality, have to pay for their upgrade, and have to wait for BP2 for said upgrade.

It is, for all intents and purposes, the ability to pay munis for a 6-man pioneer squad with none of the abilities of a pioneer except for building trenches and bunkers, and the ability to throw a simple stick grenade.

You can't rush them like assault grens because they can't sprint. They're muni-hungry if you rely on grenades and they're overall more fragile than regular Ostruppen because while they share the same negative RA, they need to get close and take more damage just so they can even do damage.

All this, so that ppsh conscripts can't just oorah right next to their faces and Hit the Dirt and kill enough models to force an early retreat- And only if you chose the MP40 rather than the LMG.

This sounds like a con issue, not an ostruppen issue then.

Anyway, iirc, hit the dirt hurts cons' 1v1 potential (htd lowers their dps more than it lowers their enemy's). Its main use (besides stalling/meatshielding) is ignoring suppression.

Why would audio be a problem?

Not ostruppen. Audio/sound of gunfire of a new weapon

Not ostruppen. Audio/sound of gunfire of a new weapon

That shouldn’t be a problem since they’re not actually new weapons, just “captured” allied weapons. They would sound exactly like they do when picked up as a dropped weapon.

I think if you simply scaled up their close range accuracy on their K98's that should be good enough. It would help their defensive role (against shorter range infantry) as well as their offensive role. To compensate, their range tables and their accuracy boost in cover should be reworked to something else, such as a Brit-like RoF/cooldown kind of deal.

On further experimentation, pairing Ostruppen with any flame unit is enough.

Still though, I'd like to explore this further.