Dodging satchel charges??

FYI Nullist Penals rarely beat a Grenadier in 1v1 up front fight as there so damn fragile. This isn't even factoring in the 50% cost increase in comparison.

Please show a replay or video of this happening. I know old replays were broken by the patch but the scenario you stated isn't really possible without other factors (veterancy, upgrades, lower starting hp, cover, mistakes made by the player).
If it is so common as you state then it shouldn't be hard to recreate.

The effective HP between the two squads is the same and the Penal squad deals more than twice the DPS of the Grenadier squad. Even when taking into account that the first Penal soldier might die before the first Grenadier, this just sounds like BS.


Other than that, the thing about dodging grenades and Satchel Charges in this game is that in online play the command latency is horrible. For many commands this is simply compensated by some animations but for grenades, satches it isn't really.
I think cancelling grenade and satchel throws would actually need to be made less responsive (not allowed to cancel it beyond a certain point) to allow for the whole timer to be displayed properly to both players.
Just throw a satchel in a (local) game vs. the computer and you'll see the timer run down properly.

will they be fixing command lag? I thought they tried to fix it (some "frame delay" tweak or something..) a couple patches ago.

It was definitely improved but it is still there. You normally don't feel it as hard (anymore) but it still gets really apparent when comparing grenade timers between online and local matches.

I kind of think penal satchels are alright. Expensive, require charging in close with a long range unit, very obvious when they're coming, the most useful thing I've found for penals to do is to wipe MGs with this. Certainly less problematic in my experience than guard grenades, which are also very lethal but have better range, are cheaper and have much shorter timers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whFNA55iD-I

3 Minutes in, Penal in equal cover to Grenadier - Forced to retreat. Assuming the Grenadier had some form of cover it would of been even more lobsided.

Hissy: Explain why/how.

Penals have the same net survival of Grens, and twice the DPS.

Back up your claim, please, with either an explanation, replay or stats.

In that replay the Penals where running vs static target (lose DPS), through red cover and then took fire from a second Gren squad. Went exactly as expected and is not evidence of your claim.

Also at 3mins TychoCelchuuu claims they take a "critical hit" from small arms, which is FALSE. There is no critical hits in small arms fire.

Firstly, that is my explanation. If a Penal squad has double the DPM of a Grenadier squad then those Penals should of won especially as by the time the Penal was stationary it had five men still alive. It took no fire from the second squad during the engagement.

"Critical Hits" are when a man dies from being hit by all the Grenadier Rifles at once, call it luck of the dice or whatever it's basically the same thing.

Let's not forget Penals cost 360 Manpower, that's 50% more than a Grenadier costs.

Firstly, that is my explanation. If a Penal squad has double the DPM of a Grenadier squad then those Penals should of won especially as by the time the Penal was stationary it had five men still alive. It took no fire from the second squad during the engagement.

"Critical Hits" are when a man dies from being hit by all the Grenadier Rifles at once, call it luck of the dice or whatever it's basically the same thing.

Let's not forget Penals cost 360 Manpower, that's 50% more than a Grenadier costs.

Relax dude. I don't think anyone is claiming that Penals are good for their cost. They clearly are not, which is why no one uses them.

Firstly, that is my explanation. If a Penal squad has double the DPM of a Grenadier squad then those Penals should of won especially as by the time the Penal was stationary it had five men still alive. It took no fire from the second squad during the engagement.

Nope, considering the mitigating effects such as MOVING through RED cover, the arrival of a second Gren squad, and incidental RNG, that engagement went exactly as expected.

Let's not forget Penals cost 360 Manpower, that's 50% more than a Grenadier costs.

What the hell does their cost have to do with their survival and DPS stats.
I asked you to explain your claim. Cost has nothing to do with that.
And lets not forget that cost buys them the equivalent of Doctrinal G43s.

Nullist - I've provided sound video footage of a Penal losing in a head to head battle with a Grenadier, in equal cover. Even with 5/6 Men alive it should kill a Grenadier squad especially considering how fast a single Grenadier model died. If anything a unit with high DPS should slaughter another unit with a lesser amount if there's no cover involved. FYI the engagement was already over by the time the second Grenadier had arrived and fired a few moving shots that did basically nothing.

How about you provide some replays of Grenadiers losing to Penals?

Considering I mainly play Osteer 1v1, as Jaeger Infantry exclusively. I can tell you right now there nothing like G43's.

Wasnt equal. The Penals where moving, in red cover and a second Gren squad arrived.

Statwise, they are BETTER than G43s at ALL ranges, especially mid.

Again Nullist you are flat out ignoring half of my text.

Penal arrives combat ready with 5/6 Models with good health - Fires on Grenadier, kills two models before it is forced to retreat. A few seconds before it retreats it is engaged by a second Gren which got very little damage dealt due to movement. Both units were in NO Cover for the majority of the actual engagement. Assuming Penals have twice the DPS of a Grenadier there still gunning at nearly 66% More firepower than a Grenadier squad even with 5 men, how do they lose?

Statwise, fine. In action however G43's hold up a lot better than STV's and unless you find some replays or streams to show otherwise there's not much you can argue toward that statement.

That engagement went exactly as it should have.

They where undermanned. Moving. In red cover (look at Tycho's cursor). And outnumbered.
Add RNG to that and everything went as intended.

Can't you two do a short 5-10 minute test? With cover that is actually equal? The location that battle was fought in is horrible: A tiny splash of normal ground surrounded by lots of red cover.
Check that location in the game: I think only one or two of those soldiers were not standing in red cover and those are the two furthest to the back who actually survived and most likely weren't attacked often during that engagement.

The cover indicator on the squad's flag really isn't worth much. It sometimes is enough for a single soldier to get good cover to display it while the rest of the squad is getting minced because of all the modifiers against them.

This can make it look like one squad should win but then gets stomped over. In this case really all things that could go wrong are stacked against the penals.

The thing is: 1 of the 5 Penals was still in redcover. The other 4 were on the little noredcover island between the streets.

But still, it is not so uncommon for a penal squad to almost lose agains grens. If Satchelcharge gets "weaker" it would be definitly good to buff penals in some way. I like that they are high dps low def, so I wouldn't change it.

Edit: And because we are talking about Satchelcharge, watch min 8.45 from the video

They need to be buffed to be viable. As of current they just cost too much to field.